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Poll: Safe Stading at the DW Stadium

For it 14 63.6%
Against it 8 36.4%
Total number of voters: 22 ( laticssince78, IanCurtis, faz, edinburghlatic, LincsWiganFan ) See more
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TOPIC: Safe Standing Debate

Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157863

  • Jayt
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What are your views on the Safe Standing Issue, would you like to see it at the DW Stadium??
The lads and lasses up in ES1 & 2 are already creating this sort of area without rail seating, so would it be a natural transition or are you firmly against it?

Shrewbury have just gone for crowdfunding (click here) to trial it at their stadium, Scotland are behind it with Celtic have a huge area for standing and a number of PL and EFL Clubs are already backing the proposal.

So far around a quarter of Clubs have been surveyed and all were in favour of an area of rail seating.

For the Club to be bothered, fans must first ask for it, so here we can gauge a little towards the feelings of Latics Supporters.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157865

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I see both sides, the 'another Hillsborough' one and the 'we stand anyway so may as well'.
Truth is, clubs that have already converted their stadiums to all seater are not going to be rushing to make them standing.
Personally, I stand through the game and think it would be good to have somewhere to stand where I would't be bugging those that want to sit, though saying that, I also don't want to be dictated to where I am in the stadium for home games, catch 22
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157867

  • Nuneatonlatic
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I once suffered ankle ligament damage at Springy and ended up leaving in an ambulance after a surge and me being pushed down the steps. Funnily enough I've never left the DW injured after a game. Also I fear that if standing became prevalent again at stadia country wide it could see a return to the bad old days of violence and racial abuse. It is so much easier to identify someone in a specific seat and has seen the game become more civilised. I'm against it obviously.
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Last Edit: 1 month 4 weeks ago by Nuneatonlatic.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157869

  • tertsflan
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The safe standing system Jayt is on about is a rail system, this means that you have an area with a rail in front of you and behind you. Everyone on the same level can move side to side, but not forward or backwards.
The surge that you speak of, crushing or risk of falling is virtually non existent, possibly less than seating as getting past people doesn't involve much.
I have left several stadia with damaged legs, scuffed calfs and heavily bruised shins due to seats. If a rail system were installed, I'd try it out, I used to lovecstanding at SP.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157872

  • Leylandlatic4ever
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www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/artic...Brigade-closure.html

Celtic V Linfield always has the potential to kick off...

I've voted against, just.

A proper safe standing area surely is safer than standing in a seating area. But is it really the way forward for football to go back....
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157873

  • horc
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I think if the safe standing areas are done correctly there would be no problem with safety at all.

As for trouble being caused, just because you are stood up it doesn't make you any more inclined to cause trouble as there have been many cases where trouble has flared in seated areas over the years anyway.

This debate is about safety of fans and whether trouble will be more prevalent shouldn't really come into it as that is a different issue altogether. It would however be looked at when deciding where to situate any standing areas.

In a recent poll on a major Liverpool FC website, there was an overwhelming majority in favour of safe standing areas. This came as a great surprise to me as I thought with all the heartbreak of the Hillsborough tragedy their fans more than any other would have been against it.

I would think it would be quite easy to do at the DW, and it would even be possible to put a safe standing area in the away end to give the opposition fans a choice also.

I am totally in favour of it but probably, being an ageing West Stand season ticket holder I would only use a safe standing area for cup games, friendlies and away matches.

The main issue I have with is whether it would be permitted to have a safe standing area without the seats attached?
Surely attaching seats to the rails just makes it even more expensive and unaffordable for most clubs. Also, if the areas were to be used for seating for certain games, would fans vision be impaired with the rail in front of them?

I think this debate will go on for years yet, but I can't see our old fuddy duddy of an owner even thinking about it anyway.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157874

  • yosser_hughes
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I have swung it to 5-4 on the against side. I like the nostalgia of the idea and fondly remember standing in the ground with groups of people you have never met before but end up having the banter etc. The smell of cigar smoke from the old chaps wafting up the stand etc but i think the game is just too advanced for it now. I have no issue with the Hillsborough thing, that was just badly policed. I have been to probably about half the grounds in the uk and never seen a 'crush' problem. That isn't an issue. In standing areas it's easier to throw missiles and go undetected. It's easier to hide flares, alcohol, cigs etc. I have no objections with cigs and alcohol. I would be more in favour of having a smoking section to be honest in stadiums or adopt the Huddersfield/Barnsley stance on it. Huddersfield let you smoke outside the stand and Barnsley have a big cage on the away end where the smokers can go. Alcohol will never be allowed in stands again though because of cock boxes like Millwall fans. I think people have got used to seating now provided there is leg room and to be fair the DW is pretty generous for leg room. Anfield is a joke though, you have about 7 inches to the seat in front of you. I could see it potentially working at grounds like that where they have just crammed as many seats in as possible and made it terribly uncomfortable for folk. In situations like that you could could get more fans in and have more room for them without the seats there but other than for nostalgic reasons, i can't see why it would/should happen.
Last Edit: 1 month 4 weeks ago by yosser_hughes.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157875

  • Nuneatonlatic
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I would question if the DW was able to install rail seating. The steps are steep so designed to ensure that the view from every seat is good. It certainly is and there are no restricted views unlike other stadia where the terrace design is more gradual. At the Emirates for instance in the lower quad as soon as the ball went down the line everyone stood up and you couldn't see ball all. I imagine that the stadium design dictates whether rail seating is compatible. The stadiums in Germany were designed for rail seating whereas ours was designed as an all seater. Now if the corners could be adapted then that could be the way to go. I may be way off the mark of course and if standing is to be reintroduced time will tell.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157877

  • The Egg
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Id be up for it. Would benefit the rugby as well.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157881

  • jrfatfan
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Can I come at this from adifferent angle chaps? I've made my views known on this, many times before, but nothing has changed.

My vote goes strongly for the safe standing option. Nothing to do do with satisfying those who would prefer to stand, but to give the young kids and us owd uns a chance to see the game.

My young grandkid has lost total interest in watching Latics away, because on most occasions, he just looks at the persons back who is standing in front of him. I've took him to various grounds and he's had to stand on the seat for a period then eventually he sits down saying his legs / feet are aching. The same applies to vertically challenged people and those elderley fans who have dodgy backs and hips.

We are supposed to be the family club Jason, but we are discouraging our youngsters from watching the team away. Please pass this message onto the club and dont be fobbed off with "its out of our hands", no it's not. All tickets are issued from the stadium unless the demand is such that there are plenty tickets left and it's pay on the day, just like Oldham.

I can't remember what club it was, it may have been Doncaster, but as you walked in the stewards where directing those fans who wanted to stand to the last 15 rows or so, thus resulting in a sit down zone for families etc.

If the club say the home team dictate the selling order, then fine, they can sell starting from the block they have been told tom sell first, if there are 30 rows, allocate say the back 20 rows to standing and the first 10 to sitting. If they say its not practicable, then me and a few mates will spend a few hours every fortnight sorting them out for um.

It's not a criminal offence to stand at an all seater football stadiums, but it does contravene 99% of the various grounds rules. I'm not for getting fans thrown out, there is absolutely no need for that, but let's make things fair for all.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157882

  • horc
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The Egg wrote:
Id be up for it. Would benefit the rugby as well.

That has changed my view on it and I'm now totally against it. We should instead be looking into ways of making it a more undesirable and less beneficial to the cuckoos.
Maybe we could make the stadium all rail seating and put the rails close together so the egg fans couldn't fit between them. Stop selling pies on rugby days might also help.
Only joking Egg, you know I don't mean it???
Make the DW an egg free zone.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157883

  • grumpy
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Would standing be any cheaper.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157892

  • laticssince78
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Could it increase the Capacity.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157894

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laticssince78 wrote:
Could it increase the Capacity.

No real necessity for that at the moment, maybe when we are in the Champions League.
Make the DW an egg free zone.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157896

  • jimmyc
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I'm for it, but how would it work at away matches? Like jr says my youngest can't see when people stand so assume if there are allocated standing areas the rest will sit?

It looks pretty safe this system to me so shouldn't be any safety concerns.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157903

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The rail system has exactly the same capacity as seating as one place on the 'terrace' is essentially a seat that is folded up. As far as I am aware, the system can be used for seating or standing, but one or the other (not fold the seat down at half time whilst you have your brew).
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157904

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I remember the buzz of Latics moving to an all-seater stafium. Funny how the gloss tarnishes over time. It's a bit like the journey to the Premier League. Sure everybody wanted to be there but once you are actually there is 'much a do' about nothing. You can't compete for the league.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157906

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Nothing could have been safer than The Pop Side when the wonderful Wigan 'Believe' Council slapped a 1000 limit on it.
We worked it out that a thousand people could stand then hold their arms out and they wouldn't touch another fan.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157908

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Nuneatonlatic wrote:
I once suffered ankle ligament damage at Springy and ended up leaving in an ambulance after a surge and me being pushed down the steps. Funnily enough I've never left the DW injured after a game. Also I fear that if standing became prevalent again at stadia country wide it could see a return to the bad old days of violence and racial abuse. It is so much easier to identify someone in a specific seat and has seen the game become more civilised. I'm against it obviously.

I did my ankle ligaments at Springfield Park too celebrating a Paul Rogers equaliser against Gillingham in 1999 but in the lower half of that terrace there was no crush barrier. If they'd had this rail seating then I wouldn't have been able to move forward or backwards & so wouldn't have got injured. I also floored everyone within about 10 feet of me too.
I assume that with a barrier at every row then the crowd surge that caused your accident wouldn't have occurred either

Incidentally as 2 old St John's guys were carrying me down the steps (where the Popular Side met the Town End) in one of those rickety chairs with wheels on, Simon Haworth scored to put us 2-1 in front. My celebrations nearly caused a second accident
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157909

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Personally, I would be all for it.
I can't see what objection anyone would have to it - if you would prefer to sit down then use the seated areas. If you would prefer to stand use the standing areas. It's a matter of choice & why should anyone who prefers to sit have the right to deny anyone else the chance to stand
You don't have any of the safety issues that occurred with the old terracing with a crush barrier at every row
You're no more likely to cause trouble standing than sitting & but (as jayt has explained), as it is literally a case of one person stood where one person would previously been sat, any trouble makers can just as easily be id'd & apprehended as if they were sat down because they won't be in a mass of constantly moving people.

If you're asking on behalf of the club in your role as fan rep jayt, my personal opinion is for the club to apply for it & I would convert the whole South Stand into this rail seating/standing for home supporters. That way you've got 5,500 standing spaces & 14,000 seating spaces & everybody has the choice.
I see too many issues to make the North Stand the same as some away supporters will want to sit & to make the stand half seating/half standing just adds extra logistical problems
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157917

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Agree with T to a point, but I don't think that a whole stand of it would be a goer. In East where they are stood up now is probably the logical place to put it, but does that sit well with WW.
Could well be a pointless discussion, as if DS and JJ are not up for it, there is o chance it will happen anyway, not in the immediate future anyway.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157918

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With the greatest respect to jay and the club who I presume have asked him to ask this I find it farcical that they don't know the full facts about it. For instance it's not 1 person per rail seat when the seats are locked upright it's 1.5 per space.

I don't want to sound like a moaner or someone that won't consider standing at football but I hate the fact that this campaign for "safe standing" that is being rammed down football fans throats isn't a public/fan led thing. It's actually a form of propoganda/publicity funded by the company/people that own the license to the rail seat in the UK. That is why we aren't being offered different ways of standing.

I will openly admit I'm against "safe standing" and I questioned the company and its safety officer a few years ago outside the stadium when they had the roadshow here. I would propose it should be called "safer" standing because it isn't as safe as seating at a game and was taken away and spoken to away from where people could listen.

Here's some of the facts about it:

The rail seat is designed for 1.5 people per space when the seat is upright and 1 per space when it is down which is required at uefa sanctioned games such as European fixtures and international games both of which there's a chance we and many others would never see at the club again.

The rail seat locked in the upright position can be dropped down by the use of a key, it's almost certain people will be able to get hold of them and drop the seats down to stand on.

When the rail seat is locked in the upright position it is not possible to pass between rows. This sounds a good thing until you consider the fact that in the event of a security alert or fire or worse in the stadium specifically in that stand the plan is people make their way down to pitch level. This would restrict this.

The rail seat stops any surge and crush injuries from the front or back but what it doesn't stop are people moving side to side which could cause serious injury or worse in a situation where people need to leave a row quickly.

The areas need extra stewarding at an extra cost to clubs and policing as the numbers would have to be closely monitored and policed.

There's loads more but this is fast turning into an essay.
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157919

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LincsWiganFan wrote:
Agree with T to a point, but I don't think that a whole stand of it would be a goer. In East where they are stood up now is probably the logical place to put it, but does that sit well with WW.
Could well be a pointless discussion, as if DS and JJ are not up for it, there is o chance it will happen anyway, not in the immediate future anyway.

I don't think that it works if you put it at the end of the east stand. If you did, then the people sat in ES3 & possibly beyond would struggle to see anything down in that corner if the people to the right of them are stood up all the way through.
Putting any standing area in the south stand makes much more sense & move the family stand over into the East
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157921

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Faz - I'd disagree with a hell of a lot that you say in your post.

Of course there is a company who offer rail seats & they have toured and put forward proposals to clubs & the FSF but the campaign for safe standing has been fan led for almost as long as the standing areas have been removed from higher level football - and was one of the reasons why the initial Taylor Report recommendation for it across all divisions in professional football was never imnplemeneted

Secondly. We're not idiots. People know that there is no way to make standing at a football game completely safe. You will always have accidents. People also know that the rail seating will not prevent you from moving from side to side but to be fair, seating at football ground isn't completely safe either - I've injured myself in seating whether that be from whacking my legs on the back of the seat in front coz there isn't enough room (Swindon Town & I still have the scars to prove it & Scott Green was playing that day to give you a sense of how long ago that was) or whether that be going over the seat in front celebrating a goal coz the banking of the stand was too steep & the height of the back of the seats not high enough (Wembley May 2013)

Thirdly on the off chance that someone is able to get hold of the key to move the seat down & stand on it - a) They'll be an individual who is quickly lobbed out & b) it's unlikely that the entire stand will do it or even enough people to make it a safety issue will be able to do it . A c) as well is that currently people can & do stand on the seats in ground anyway so I fail to see what point you're making

People can currently move side to side when the seats are up. How would it cause any more injury than at present or represent any more of a danger if people need top leave in an emergency

Finally, the current seats aren't designed for the occupants to be able to get over them & get to pitch level in the event of an emergency. Stadiums are designed for people to use the rows & aisles to evacuate whether that be through the stand (if you are at the top half of a stand in the DW) or at pitch level via the gangway at the front. The safety calculations make no account for people vaulting over the seats and various tests are done to ensure that using the rows, aisles & evac routes that the stadium can be completely evacuated within a specific time.

I'm sorry but at the moment, not a single one of the points you raised above stands up to any sort of scrutiny
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Safe Standing Debate 1 month 4 weeks ago #157923

  • Leylandlatic4ever
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faz wrote:
With the greatest respect to jay and the club who I presume have asked him to ask this I find it farcical that they don't know the full facts about it. For instance it's not 1 person per rail seat when the seats are locked upright it's 1.5 per space.

Wasn't aware of that, I thought it was the same capacity as seating, 1 per "seat".

I voted (very narrowly) against. If that's correct info, I'm now strongly against. Been to games years ago where you couldn't put your hand in your pocket without elbowing the person next to you so I'm out....
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