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This is an old, but still interesting piece written by Alan Curbishley on the subject of the 451/433 formation.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005 … tory.sport
The key paragraph is probably:
‘People say that it’s the influence of Greece winning Euro 2004, but it’s not. I remember being at Euro 2000 and being struck by the number of teams playing 4-5-1 or 4-3-3, which is basically the same, as Portugal did when they came from 2-0 down to beat England 3-2. Almost all the club or national teams that have won football’s major honours in recent years have been set out like that’
And before anyone passes comment, no, the system isn’t working as it should, but this article might give more of an insight into what Martinez is trying to achieve.
Good article, however remind me again which division Charlton are in again?They are League One.
Two years after this article was written, they were relegated from the Premier League with Alan Pardew as manager.
I fail to see what relevance Alan Curbishley talking about 4-5-1 in 2004 or whatever @ Charlton has to do with Roberto Martinez playing that formation at Latcis in 2010.
The vast majority of those who don’t like the way Latcis have been playing this season are not idiots. They are fully aware that sometimes 4-5-1 can be an attacking formation just as they are aware that it can be an unadventurous formation (In fact Curbishley as good as admits it can be used as either)
It doesn’t alter the fact that it quite clearly isn’t working – at latics & at the present moment in time, not for Charlton in 2004
Whether that be because we don’t have either the quality or type of players to be able to play it well enough or because we may well have but the managerial & coaching staff aren’t good enough to get their ideas across“this article might give more of an insight into what Martinez is trying to achieve” – for a start not it doesn’t give any insight into what Bobby is trying to achieve. It gives an insight into what Alan Curbishley was thinking over half a decade ago. Also, there are alot of things that I’ve tried to achieve in my life. Some I’ve succeeded at & others I’ve failed at. Those I’ve failed at (e.g. my childhood dream of being a pro footballer!!!!!) have usually been because I wasn’t good enough
The players you have can dictate the formation a manager prefers, but until the manager tries out various permutations, how will he really know what’s the best for his team, with the exception of a couple of 4-3-3 attempts, bobby seems wholly committed to the 4-5-1 formation no matter who the opposition are home or away and more importantly for me however the tide of the game is going. The more experienced prem managers not only embrace change on the hoof but regularly turn the tide switching formation and getting results with it. Now I know Bobby’s inexperienced but in quite a number of games especially at home from being on top and a goal up, it has become obvious that the opposition are getting on top before they actually score. I would agree with the article that most fans would go for the result over the performance especially in a managers first season. I am not of the martinez out brigade but am very disappointed both at his lack of trying different formations and his thinking on the spot.
A major point in the article seemed to be that 4-5-1 works great at clubs with a scoring sole striker amongst a host of scoring midfield, would that we were so blessed. We dont have anybody good enough to play upfront on their own, especially since their hardly ever seems to be midfield support in the box when we are attacking. The main reason I believe that this formation doesn’t work for Martinez is the enigma “Scharner” yes he might win headers and score the odd one, but his footwork, passing and positioning do nothing to help the inexpierienced Diame and McCarthy and ruin Martinez’s preferred passing game.
When you look around, most of the top teams now play with a 4-5-1 formation. The difference to us, is that they have the quality players to play the formation, and this is something that Roberto is obviously working towards. Look at United? It is how they play, and goalscoring is no problem. It is just having the right player to play the system. But Roberto has already said it will take him “3 windows” to get the players he wants. We’ve already got some quality players in, so the additions will be interesting.
I think the key to being successful with 4-5-1, is to keep good possession, and not give the ball away cheaply. This is something we are guilty of too often.
I have actually put a question/suggestion to Roberto, which basically says “Why don’t we try and switch to this formation AFTER starting with something more like a 4-4-2, and possibly taking the lead? And when the opposition make their comeback, and up their game on about 60 minutes, THEN change to 4-5-1, dropping Scharner or somebody back to play just in-front of the defence, and playing on the break, ready to catch out the teams who are committing more men forward? Hopefully the tactical change will surprise the opposition, as well.” (A plan B?)
I think we seem to ‘invite’ teams to attack us at times, and we usually ship a goal from the intensified pressure.
One of the major things that strikes me from watching Latics this season is that they don’t seem to put the oppositon under anything like enough pressure when they have the ball
As dave says, it invites teams to come at usOne thing you’ve pretty much been able to guarantee since we got in the top flight (bar the odd exception) is that we didn’t give teams an easy ride. Its all too common now unfortunately
Putting teams under pressure when we had the ball, was exactly what we did in our first season in the Premiership, wasn’t it?
I have also actually asked Roberto if we have a professional fitness trainer working at the club, like we had in Joey Gallanagh. Our lads looked as fit as any other team, when he was here. Remember when Wenger called Bullard “marathon man”, because he never stopped running? All our lads were the same, full of running and energy.
I do wonder if that is what we are actually lacking this season. Not trying to embarrass the manager by raising the question, but if we have not got a specific fitness trainer, perhaps we need to get one? Our lads seem to fade after an hour, don’t they?
Speaking of Joey Gallanagh, I just found this link about him, and the next job he got offered after leaving us, in May 2008.
http://www.inishowennews.com/08JoeyGallanagh.htm
DID we replace him? Nobody specifially named as a fitness coach in the programme. Does anybody else think the players overall fitness COULD be a factor in our failings? Perhaps when Bruce was here, with Black, the compensated for it. But I think it could be a factor why we have struggled, this season.
Have I hit upon something, here?
“What they have to do – and I have said it time after time after time – is they have to be better at getting the big decisions right …
If you look back at the last three matches, you could put a good DVD together of huge mistakes made in big games ….There are just too many big decisions being made that are wrong that are clear for everyone else to see”Quotes from Bobby in wigantoday.net on his performance recently!!
Vat 69
Would certainly agree with you that fitness seems to be an issue, even before Bruce, feel that the jeweller was very good in pre season preparation and overall fitness of players when he was here. Additionally I wonder if there are one or two other factors like a good number of players having their first season in the prem, either from coming up from the championship or another country.Tyldesley,
The point of the article was to reinforce some the views of the pro-Martinez brigade. That clearly has missed the mark, so I’ll highlight what I saw of interest in the article:
As I’ve posted on here previously, the 4-5-1 and 4-3-3 formations are virtually one and the same. In attack it’s 4-3-3 and in defence it is 4-5-1. That is why a left footed player plays on the right, and a right footed player plays on the left. They are not there to get to the byline and cross it in. They are there to cut in and join the ‘lone’ striker getting shots on goal. This is not working properly (as I stated in my original post)
The Fulham fans were chanting 4-4-2, as they saw 4-5-1 as negative, when more often than not it tends to bring more people into scoring positions. Many posters on this board have been vocal about going to 4-4-2, especially at home, as they see playing with one out and out striker as being too negative, and not adventurous enough with a home advantage. So I’d have to disagree with your comment: ‘The vast majority of those who don’t like the way Latcis have been playing this season are not idiots. They are fully aware that sometimes 4-5-1 can be an attacking formation…’ (Maybe they are not idiots, but they do not see 4-5-1 as an attacking formation)
Someone suggested today that Martinez should be asked who plays this style of football successfully: ‘Almost all the club or national teams that have won football’s major honours in recent years have been set out like that’
Add to that more recently Chelsea, Arsenal, Manchester United, Barcelona, and a majority of Dutch teams to name a few.
What it Martinez trying to achieve? This perhaps?
‘It seems that 4-5-1 has been blamed for turning Premiership matches into dull spectacles. But I want to dispel that myth. Yes, it is a pragmatic formation, but it can be fluid, attack-orientated and exciting to watch…. Foreign managers, especially, would say that 4-5-1 makes you stronger defensively but also in attack.’
Martinez knows what he wants to achieve, but as I said in my initial post, it clearly isn’t working properly. This article demonstrates that the system can work, and has worked often in the past, and Martinez has made it work at Swansea. Perhaps therefore it is a lack of quality in the squad that is to blame.
The players you have can dictate the formation a manager prefers, but until the manager tries out various permutations, how will he really know what’s the best for his team, with the exception of a couple of 4-3-3 attempts, bobby seems wholly committed to the 4-5-1 formation no matter who the opposition are home or away and more importantly for me however the tide of the game is going. The more experienced prem managers not only embrace change on the hoof but regularly turn the tide switching formation and getting results with it. Now I know Bobby’s inexperienced but in quite a number of games especially at home from being on top and a goal up, it has become obvious that the opposition are getting on top before they actually score. I would agree with the article that most fans would go for the result over the performance especially in a managers first season. I am not of the martinez out brigade but am very disappointed both at his lack of trying different formations and his thinking on the spot.A major point in the article seemed to be that 4-5-1 works great at clubs with a scoring sole striker amongst a host of scoring midfield, would that we were so blessed. We dont have anybody good enough to play upfront on their own, especially since their hardly ever seems to be midfield support in the box when we are attacking. The main reason I believe that this formation doesn’t work for Martinez is the enigma “Scharner” yes he might win headers and score the odd one, but his footwork, passing and positioning do nothing to help the inexpierienced Diame and McCarthy and ruin Martinez’s preferred passing game.
Colbob
A few years ago I was holiday with my family and Scott Vernon – currently playing for Southend – was in the same hotel. (I hadn’t got a clue who he was at first.)
Anyway, he is surprisingly articulate for a footballer, and was talking about when he was at Oldham and Ian Dowie was manager. He said Dowie was a brilliant manager if the players listened to him, and played the Ian Dowie way to specific instructions.
He reckoned that Dowie had a poor record in the Premier League because, a lot of the Premier League players believe their own hype, and decide that they know best. He said it only takes one or two to disregard instructions and do their own thing on the pitch, and everything falls apart.
Could this be the case at Wigan with Martinez?
Not so sure about that standish, not aware of any massive ego’s to feed although scharner has the occasional paddy. I wonder given the many nationalities in the team how much gets lost in translation, for me the key areas of the field that we lack experience in are central midfield, long term I think Diame and McCarthy will work well together but need to get to know each others game and are learning the ropes against top notch midfielders everyweek. Upfront we haven’t got a player who can fit the system and score goals. I don’t think it’s down to one thing but that l’ts a cocktail of all these factors that impact on the effectiveness of martinez’s preferred system.
Do you remember under Jewell? He would occasionally play 4-3-3 when we were playing the likes of Man Utd.
Used to drive people mad, always glad to get back to 4-2-2. You can see yards of space on the wing, but the winger doesn’t take advantage of this.
The likes of Man Utd can afford to play 4-5-1 as they have enough quality within players. Sometimes when attack minded, you will see a formation change.
The value of traditional wing play has been there for all to see in Man Utds last two games.
MOM Valencia and putting the ball on the strikers head. Utd couldn’t break through, until the traditional winger comes on.
We don’t have enough quality to take teams like Arsenal on at their own game.
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