Did Anyone Notice John Barnes At DW Last Season?

Forums Latics Crazy Forum Did Anyone Notice John Barnes At DW Last Season?

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  • #115728

    John Barnes was on Talksport this morning with Ray Stubbs and Alvin Martin and they were talking about how disappointing the U21s have been.

    John Barnes said in his opinion English players are not as technically gifted as their European counterparts, and in the past have gotten away with it through aggression and commitment. These days however, due to the advancement of the game, it’s more difficult to do that, and until English teams move away from the traditional up and at ‘em style, the English players’ will never match foreign players in terms of skills, and the national team will suffer.

    He then went on to say that when English teams try to replicate what the European teams do – by keeping possession for long periods, often having to go backward and start again, they get booed by the fans.

    Were you watching games as the DW last season Mr Barnes? ‘Gerrit forwards!’

    #115733
    RodgerDodgerDave
    Player
      John Barnes was on Talksport this morning with Ray Stubbs and Alvin Martin and they were talking about how disappointing the U21s have been.

      John Barnes said in his opinion English players are not as technically gifted as their European counterparts, and in the past have gotten away with it through aggression and commitment. These days however, due to the advancement of the game, it’s more difficult to do that, and until English teams move away from the traditional up and at ‘em style, the English players’ will never match foreign players in terms of skills, and the national team will suffer.

      He then went on to say that when English teams try to replicate what the European teams do – by keeping possession for long periods, often having to go backward and start again, they get booed by the fans.

      Were you watching games as the DW last season Mr Barnes? ‘Gerrit forwards!’

      I must admit Standish it was tedious at times watching us pfaff about with the ball last season. I think we just didn’t have the quality of players to break teams down playing that style of football. Arsenal we are not I’m afraid.

      However, for that matter, I’m not advocating hoof ball either. I know enough Bolton fans that complain constantly that’s the only style they know. I would think that a mixture of both styles is needed where and when necessary in games. Sadly, this is something Roberto wouldn’t do. Mix it up, change formation or whatever, which was a shame.

      I suppose the quote by Einstein could be used here;

      Madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

      When plan A wasn’t working, Roberto reverted to plan A so to speak.

      #115734
      lowtonlaticDavid Graham
      Player

        Can’t fault Martinez for having a go though. How are you ever going to try and instil a certain way of playing at a club if you don’t stick to your guns.

        That’s the way he truly believed he could help Wigan, by changing our playing style so all players including youth teams had the same philosophy. It wasn’t a short term plan, it was a well thought out route that would help Wigan in the long term, to become financially stable without Whelan and to gain an edge without having the finances of other clubs.

        I fully appreciate what he was trying to do, and but for a horrendous defensive injury list I think we would have not been steered off course. I hope that Whelan finds someone who can continue this development and who can kick us on again.

        #115735

        I tend to agree.

        Moving the ball sideways or backwards can create openings and different angles for forward movement. Keeping possession means we are in control of the play and can try to create such openings.

        However where our players were lacking (and it’s not the tactic that’s wrong, it’s just that we have some players who weren’t innovative enough) was the thinking behind why the ball was going back – ie to create openings further upfield – so we needed players then running off the ball further up the park whereas they tended to stop and have a breather, and the understanding that that occasionally, not always but certainly there are times, when a hoof into row Z from defence is what is needed. They seemed to think “Boss has said we should play the ball out from defence to feet”, rather than occasionally just thinking what the correct thing to do was.

        #115741

        In my opinion, I think Martinez was trying to turn Wigan from a poorly supported, under-financed, battling but unattractive team into a more appealing proposition by playing football the ‘right way’ and honing players’ skills. Players would therefore want to come to the club to learn.

        In the past, why would a player want to play for Wigan? Because they were unknown and wanted to use Wigan as a stepping stone; to get one last decent contract before retirement, or because they were a misfit and had run out of options.

        Martinez was trying to turn Wigan into a club that decent young players would choose to come to above other clubs.

        He was also trying to emulate the academies of Spain and Holland by getting the players to play a certain way from an early age, and thus create a farming system – bringing players through the ranks to play in the first team or be sold on, saving/making the club money in the process.

        If that’s what he was trying to achieve, I can understand why he didn’t mix and match his styles as it would go completely against all he’d set out to do: if you’re trying to instil a specific playing style, you need to stick with it.

        I agree that at times some of the players didn’t look good enough to play that style, but I’d hasten to add that at times when it all clicked (albeit, unregularly) they looked more than good enough.

        All this suggests to me that Martinez looked upon Wigan as a project where the processes and outcomes off the pitch were more important than the results on it.

        Personally, I think he’ll do well at a bigger club and I’d like someone to come to Wigan and carry on where Martinez left off – like Rogers and then Laudrup did at Swansea.

        #115747
        RodgerDodgerDave
        Player
          In my opinion, I think Martinez was trying to turn Wigan from a poorly supported, under-financed, battling but unattractive team into a more appealing proposition by playing football the ‘right way’ and honing players’ skills. Players would therefore want to come to the club to learn.

          In the past, why would a player want to play for Wigan? Because they were unknown and wanted to use Wigan as a stepping stone; to get one last decent contract before retirement, or because they were a misfit and had run out of options.

          Martinez was trying to turn Wigan into a club that decent young players would choose to come to above other clubs.

          He was also trying to emulate the academies of Spain and Holland by getting the players to play a certain way from an early age, and thus create a farming system – bringing players through the ranks to play in the first team or be sold on, saving/making the club money in the process.

          If that’s what he was trying to achieve, I can understand why he didn’t mix and match his styles as it would go completely against all he’d set out to do: if you’re trying to instil a specific playing style, you need to stick with it.

          I agree that at times some of the players didn’t look good enough to play that style, but I’d hasten to add that at times when it all clicked (albeit, unregularly) they looked more than good enough.

          All this suggests to me that Martinez looked upon Wigan as a project where the processes and outcomes off the pitch were more important than the results on it.

          Personally, I think he’ll do well at a bigger club and I’d like someone to come to Wigan and carry on where Martinez left off – like Rogers and then Laudrup did at Swansea.

          Good post StandishWalker. I agree pretty much with everything you say there. Looking at your paragraph here;

          ‘If that’s what he was trying to achieve, I can understand why he didn’t mix and match his styles as it would go completely against all he’d set out to do: if you’re trying to instil a specific playing style, you need to stick with it.’

          I agree Roberto did try to instil a specific playing style which was easy on the eye. But by sticking with it when at times it was so completely necessary to compromise it, did expose his limitations as a coach I feel.

          Don’t get me wrong, It’s the style of football I and every man and his dog were crowing about and it can work. Look at Barca (I’m not for one second comparing us to them here) It does work. Great passing, movement, scoring, they have the lot. What they have and we don’t is ability and teamwork. They seem to be able to stick hold of the ball at will and great work ethic too.

          However, for Roberto to stick with an ideology just because that’s his style is clearly unworkable, considering some of our players lacked real ability/consistency full teamwork, in allowing that style to successfully prevail.

          Just my thoughts anyway.

          #115749

          That was always my main criticism of Martinez. Stubbornly refusing to abandon his passing principles, even for one minute. The main one being the playing out of defence no matter what which directly cost us a good number of goals in his time here.

          #115754

          There were definitely times when even the most staunch believer in pretty football must have been urging them to just get rid of it.

          He was never the perfect manager but I’d say there were many more good traits then bad ones.

          #115776
          The DukeThe Duke
          Player

            I’ve read/heard a lot of convincing arguments that suggest that ‘tika-taka’ is on the way out and the Bayern/Dortmund model is more effective. The Champions League final was certainly more entertaining with neither team content with passing the ball around the back four for several minutes. This might just be an over reaction of Bayern’s 7-0 aggregate win over Barca but I agree that each time needs a plan B. I always thought that, although we had flair players like Maloney and McManaman, most of the other players (particularly the wing backs) lacked the ability to beat a man and get behind defences, so they played the easy ball back inside and we were back to square one. Defences could set up easily and force Wigan to break them down, our only hope was give it to Maloney and hope he can whip a stepover out of the bag. I always thought we looked most dangerous on the counter attack last season when defences were out of position and we could attack them at pace.

            #115807
            I’ve read/heard a lot of convincing arguments that suggest that ‘tika-taka’ is on the way out and the Bayern/Dortmund model is more effective. The Champions League final was certainly more entertaining with neither team content with passing the ball around the back four for several minutes. This might just be an over reaction of Bayern’s 7-0 aggregate win over Barca but I agree that each time needs a plan B. I always thought that, although we had flair players like Maloney and McManaman, most of the other players (particularly the wing backs) lacked the ability to beat a man and get behind defences, so they played the easy ball back inside and we were back to square one. Defences could set up easily and force Wigan to break them down, our only hope was give it to Maloney and hope he can whip a stepover out of the bag. I always thought we looked most dangerous on the counter attack last season when defences were out of position and we could attack them at pace.

            ‘Tika-taka’ is a well-trodden cliché coined for the short passing game, which is not a new concept, so (in my opinion) those who are saying it’s had its day are talking out of their culo.

            It’s passing and moving into space. Same as the Dutch played in the 70s, same as Barca, Dortmund, Swansea, Arsenal etc play now.

            Of course tactics change, but essentially the passing and moving aspect stays the same.

            #115813
            SammySammy
            Player

              In answer to your question, I sit within eye-shot of the directors box and have never seen him in there, unless he’s done a Roy Keane better than Roy Keane and sneaked in elsewhere!

              Hope this is helpful!

              #115817
              filmossfilmoss
              Player

                They even played it out from defence with seconds to go when losing ! The short corners with seconds to go also had me baffled sometimes ! I guess failing to score on 11 occasions ( Losing all 11 ) tells a story. 73 goals against tells a tale of woe at the other end ! I found that they were slow out of the blocks in quite a few of the games and it usually took a goal from the opposing side to get them to come to life, unfortunately this happened on 25 occasions and we went on to lose 18 of those ! When we scored first ( 13 times ) we only went on to lose 2 of those. Just exactly why they were slow out of the blocks on too many occasions is the million Dollar question ?

                #115848
                The DukeThe Duke
                Player

                  I’ve read/heard a lot of convincing arguments that suggest that ‘tika-taka’ is on the way out and the Bayern/Dortmund model is more effective. The Champions League final was certainly more entertaining with neither team content with passing the ball around the back four for several minutes. This might just be an over reaction of Bayern’s 7-0 aggregate win over Barca but I agree that each time needs a plan B. I always thought that, although we had flair players like Maloney and McManaman, most of the other players (particularly the wing backs) lacked the ability to beat a man and get behind defences, so they played the easy ball back inside and we were back to square one. Defences could set up easily and force Wigan to break them down, our only hope was give it to Maloney and hope he can whip a stepover out of the bag. I always thought we looked most dangerous on the counter attack last season when defences were out of position and we could attack them at pace.

                  ‘Tika-taka’ is a well-trodden cliché coined for the short passing game, which is not a new concept, so (in my opinion) those who are saying it’s had its day are talking out of their culo.

                  It’s passing and moving into space. Same as the Dutch played in the 70s, same as Barca, Dortmund, Swansea, Arsenal etc play now.

                  Of course tactics change, but essentially the passing and moving aspect stays the same.[/quote]

                  Fair point, indeed, most big/successful clubs play a variation of the short passing game, ‘tika-taka’ like you say is just a cliche which refers to the successful Spanish tactics of recent years. No Bayern/Real/Barca will ever just smack it long, the adjustments come in formations/set-pieces/plan Bs.

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