› Forums › Latics Crazy Forum › Roberto Martinez: ‘The Fall Guy’.
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keepthefaith.
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28 February 2011 at 2:45 pm #60760
One point I would like to make is that Roberto Martinez is nothing but a bit of a ‘fall guy’. Why?
Well, look at the last few seasons, since we got promoted.
2005- we came up, with a strong, battling side. One that never gave up and had great self belief. We did great in that first season.And at the end of that season, the ‘rot’ started. Jimmy Bullard left, for whatever the REAL reason was. (I don’t buy into the ‘moving nearer to family’ excuse, and have heard other tales which I don’t want to go into on here)
And Jason Roberts was allowed to leave, through sheer frugality/tightness by Whelan. Graham Kavanagh was also allowed to leave, and Chimbonda WANTED to leave. So straight away, we’d lost our main striker, midfield playmaker, and midfield ‘enforcer’, as well as possibly our best ever right back.No wonder we struggled in our second season!
And that second season was totally different. We brought players in on the cheap, like Skoko, Unsworth, etc. We walked a tightrope, and escaped on goal different. We were VERY lucky. Jewell resigned, which wasn’t really a shock, and Hutchings took over, with my mate who followed Bradford, when living up there, warned me “he’s a crap manager”, as he had been second in charge and taken the reigns up there.
But we started the THIRD season quite well. We brought in Melchiot, Bramble, and Sibierski. Experienced signings. Then we slumped, and it was abysmal. Hutchings went and Bruce came in and steadied the ship. He also moved to bring in players such as Wilson Palacios and Maynor Figueroa, though most of the seasdon, we had Kilbane at left back, as Baines had gone to Everton.
The FOURTH season came and we were quite hopeful. Bruce had assembled a strong side, with a solid defence, and we also recruited Lee Cattermole who looked like being a solid midfield kingpin, though he had spells out through injury and suspension. And we had Amr Zaki who started like a house on fire, knocking goals in. Palacios was absolutely brilliant, as was Valencia, and in Heskey up front, we had a really strong, experienced international forward. Ok, he didn’t score many, but he created space for others. then January came, and in the window, we lost Palacios and Heskey. We brought in loanees like Mido and Moreno, who were garbage. And Zaki had gone off the boil. Truly, the last few weeks of the season saw us in relegation form, with Bruce repeatedly saying “i’ve been unable to motivate the players”. I genuinely believe that Sunderland had already tapped him up, and it was no surprise when he jumped ship in the summer. And Valencia went to United.
For our FIFTH season, in came Roberto, and he started to assemble his side, for me, he was building it around Cattermole. And then on the eve of the season, he jumped ship to Sunderland, totally blowing apart his team plans. In the summer, we lost Melchiot, Scharner, and Bramble, again to Sunderland.
I’ll not go into this season, but my point is that over the past 6 seasons, our quality of squad has declined more and more. It’s got younger, definitely, but perhaps not experienced enough. Definitely not.
Fact is that we have sold that much quality and let it go, over the past few seasons, and replaced them with youth, and cheap options. ( I.E. Gohouri, Caldwell’s, Figueroa, etc) and it has finally caught up with us this season. It was always going to. Roberto Martinez is, in many ways, unlucky that he is in charge of the team at this point. Though his comments in interviews do not help him, when he says we have a strong squad, etc. No. It’s a squad that has plenty of young ‘potential’, but whether or not those players will fulfil their potential WITH Latics, is debatable, when we go down.
And rightly, or wrongly, the manager is getting slated. But Roberto Martinez is our manager, because nobody else would have taken, or would take the job on. Ok, somebody from a smaller, lower league side, perhaps. But none of these names that people keep dragging out. Martin O’Neill? Left Villa because of lack of funds. Sam Allardyce? Insists he’s a Premiership manager and declined the West Brom job, before he was actually approached, as he obviously feels they may go down. Who else is there? Chris Hughton? He’s got less experience than Martinez! Talk about ‘out of the frying pan, into the fire’.
Martinez has got the job….because he was the only person who would take on the job, with Whelan’s constraints and budgets. That said, it’s interestin what would have happened had someone else had the job these past two seasons, somebody who had no links with the club. But Whelan knows nobody else would take the job, and that’s why he hasn’t sacked, nor won’t sack Martinez.
I think Whelan is biding his time in the hope that between now and the end of Martinez’ 3 year contract, which is the summer of 2012, he’ll have sold his interest in the club, and will therefore not have to make another managerial appointment….one that he would struggle to make. I’m almost sure of it.
28 February 2011 at 3:08 pm #60764I get your general point but Skoko was signed during the close season we got promoted & Moreno was signed on loan by Bobby & not Bruce.
Also, to say Bobby has been hampered coz he was gonna build his team around Cattermole when he’s had 3 transfer windows since then to replace him (& hasn’t – adequately anyway) is letting him off the hook somewhat
On top of that when people talk about him operating with one hand behind his back & having to doing things on the cheap it fails to take into account that Bruce had his team sold out from underneath him & against his wishes. Since that first summer Bobby arrived he has not had to sell 1 of his big name players – it was Bobby who declined to offer Scharner another deal (rightly so IMO), same with Melchiot (again rightly so). Yes Bramble quite clearly engineered a move away but it was also pretty clear that Bobby didn’t rate him anyway. But in the last 3 windows Bobby has been able to keep hold of the “star” players that he wanted to.
Linked to that, on top of barely recouping anything in transfer fees he is/was one of the highest spending managers in the division before the last transfer window & has to date wated the best part of £13mill on 3 of the worst top flight strikers I’ve ever seenHe is the “fall guy” as you put it because he deserves a large part of the blame for our reversal in fortunes over the last 2 seasons.
The most stubborn, tactically naive & inflexible manager I have ever seen in my time at Latics. He turned a defence that was one of the best in the division to a quivering wreck within 3 months & during which time they conceded more goals than they had in the whole of the season before. Players who looked good under previous managers looked garbage under BobbyAs for Bobby being the only manager who would take the job 2 seasons ago or even now. You don’t know that any more than I know somebody would but if West Brom can entice Roy Hodgson when they are notoriously cautious with their premier league money then I’m sure someone of that caibre could/could have been enticed to Latics
28 February 2011 at 3:17 pm #60765I get your general point but Skoko was signed during the close season we got promoted & Moreno was signed on loan by Bobby & not Bruce.Also, to say Bobby has been hampered coz he was gonna build his team around Cattermole when he’s had 3 transfer windows since then to replace him (& hasn’t – adequately anyway) is letting him off the hook somewhat
On top of that when people talk about him operating with one hand behind his back & having to doing things on the cheap it fails to take into account that Bruce had his team sold out from underneath him & against his wishes. Since that first summer Bobby arrived he has not had to sell 1 of his big name players – it was Bobby who declined to offer Scharner another deal (rightly so IMO), same with Melchiot (again rightly so). Yes Bramble quite clearly engineered a move away but it was also pretty clear that Bobby didn’t rate him anyway. But in the last 3 windows Bobby has been able to keep hold of the “star” players that he wanted to.
Linked to that, on top of barely recouping anything in transfer fees he is/was one of the highest spending managers in the division before the last transfer window & has to date wated the best part of £13mill on 3 of the worst top flight strikers I’ve ever seenHe is the “fall guy” as you put it because he deserves a large part of the blame for our reversal in fortunes over the last 2 seasons.
The most stubborn, tactically naive & inflexible manager I have ever seen in my time at Latics. He turned a defence that was one of the best in the division to a quivering wreck within 3 months & during which time they conceded more goals than they had in the whole of the season before. Players who looked good under previous managers looked garbage under BobbyAs for Bobby being the only manager who would take the job 2 seasons ago or even now. You don’t know that any more than I know somebody would but if West Brom can entice Roy Hodgson when they are notoriously cautious with their premier league money then I’m sure someone of that caibre could/could have been enticed to Latics
On what financial terms? More than Whelan will offer.
I actually agree with some of what you say, and i was fully aware of when we signed Skoko. But he hardly figured in the first season, really.
Martinez is the only person who would do the job, I stand by that. Whelan is just biding his time, probably gambling on us getting up again straight away, if we go down, so he can sell us on a ‘high’ for maximum resale potential.
You definitely want him out, don’t you?
28 February 2011 at 3:45 pm #60766You say that the squad has been getting worse and less experience every season yet just a few paragraphs earlier say that in the third season we bought good and experienced players (Bramble, Sibierski, Melchiot etc)
The truth is the squad has got gradually worse not in terms of personel but in performances and that can only be down to one man! Also the players that are being brought in are not good enough and to say we are doing it on the cheap is wrong (£6m on Boselli)28 February 2011 at 3:53 pm #60767There are plenty of managers who would do the job at Latics
Bobby was Whelan’s first choice 2 summer’s back probably due to a combination of reasons – 1 being that he would have been alot cheaper in terms of wages than Bruce & 2 coz his stock at the time was quite high & he was seen as a rising star (hence him being offered the Celtic job & if my memory serves me right weren’t West Brom after him as well?) mainly on the back of getting Swansea to challenge for the championship play offs within 2 seasons of taking over & a good couple of performances against Fulham in the cup.
In all honesty I don’t think he was offered it because Whelan know no-one would take it coz he then went & spent several million quid bringing in the backroom staff Bobby insisted had to come with him – not really the actions of a chairman who just wanted someone to watch the pennies whilst he tried to sell the clubI am completely baffled as to why someone with the football knowledge of Dave Whelan can’t see some of the horrendous & repeated mistakes Bobby keeps making. I’m equally as baffled, if not more so, as to why despite forcing one of Whelan’s best mates out of the club & staking his reputation on signing a player for £6.5mill who’s turned out to be a complete flop & has been farmed out less than 6 months after arriving, that Whelan still maintains that he’s one of the best young managers around. Maybe that’s why conspiracy theories have sprung up such as him not sacking him coz Whelan wants us to go down or he thinks that he’ll get us promoted on a high next season & get a better price for Latics when he sells.
However, there are plenty of Latics fans who argue that he’s the right man for the job & that he just need’s time (how much time is never specified) so I don’t see why Whelan should be viewed with such suspicion for thinking the sameDo I definitely want him out? What gave the game away?? :lol: :lol:
Quite simply I think he’s an awful manager with a poor record on signings, who is tactically naive & inflexible and who seems incapable of learning from his mistakes
Apart from that he’s not to bad!!
Without wanting to look like I’m having any dig at you dave (coz I aint) posts like yours which started the thread just in my mind seem to be making excuses for the guys incompetence28 February 2011 at 6:40 pm #60776Not making excuses, just trying to look at the bigger picture.
It’s getting very boring, all this anti-Martinez stuff. Ok, I admit, I’m not overly keen on how things are going. I have my own criticisms of the manager, etc. But like I’ve said elsewhere, he’s not going anywhere, so to keep on and on having a go at him is doing nobody any good.
I very much doubt that David Whelan will make another managerial appointment at Latics, and Martinez will be in charge for the duration of his contract, at the very least. The key moment will be the sale of the club, but until that happens, I cannot forsee anything changing, unless the manager goes of his own accord.
So for people to keep coming on and dare I say ‘revelling’ in our failures (that’s how it comes across), well, it’s doing nobody any good.
Personally, I’m not bothered if we go down. It’ll be more exciting. Fresher. Away from the big four biasedness. I intend to enjoy it.
28 February 2011 at 7:12 pm #60779It would be a shame if we went down.
Saturday just epitomised what this league will always be about and that is the big teams who always get the big decisions. It has always been this way and that is not going to change.
The only bright point to the weekend was Brum beating Arsenal as for once the little guy had his day.
While I will support the team through thick and thin and would have a lot more games more local to me here if we did go down, I do worry about what kind of squad we are likely to be left with should we go down – and I still think we can stay up :dance:
Charlie, Hugo, Alcaraz and Al Habsi would definitely not be with us – oh and Cleverley. We wouldn’t be able to afford Boselli but he might score a few in the Championship :pray:
And then of the young players, I would think McCarthy and Moses would have clauses in their contracts where we’ll have to let them go if we get relegated. Di Santo (judging by the way he sulks) will probably have a similar clause.
We’ll want to get Figgy off the wage bill and Gohouri doesn’t want to be here.
Lopez will have long gone, although we won’t know if he’s any good or not.So who does that leave us with?
Pollitt, The Proclaimers, Figgy (although we’ll want to get him off the wage bill), Watson (cracking Championship player), Gomez (good Championship player), McArthur (he’ll be pining for little James), Stam (he might be too little even for the Championship!), Diame (he’ll want to go back to Madrid), McMananman (would do well in the league below), Thomas, Boyce and Sammon.
Frightening :violin:
28 February 2011 at 7:17 pm #60780Anonymous
28 February 2011 at 7:31 pm #60784We go down,
We sell: Rodallega, Nzogbia, Figueroa, Koumas
(Possibly Moses, as Warnock may fancy him at
QPR. He rates him very highly from Palace)We Battle To Keep: McCarthy, Alcaraz, Diame, Moses
We’ll Keep: Boyce, G Caldwell, Stam, Watson,
McArthur, Gomez, Thomas, Di Santo,
McManaman, Sammon, Mustoe, NichollsRELEASED: Kirkland, Pollitt, Gohouri, S Caldwell,
De Ridder. (Lopez maybe back to Spain?)Some serious rebuilding needed, but at the lower-costing Championship level. Bring in someone proven at that level, such as Billy Sharp. Perhaps we should have signed Kris Commons in January. He joined Celtic for only £400,000 and at Championship level, would have been a good player.
A new keeper is a priority!28 February 2011 at 7:37 pm #60785I take your point VAT but backing him/and or saying we can’t change anything anyway is not doing anybody any good either
Personally I’ve become fed up of the incessant struggle to try & come 17th every year and for all Bobby’s talk of turning us into a top 10 side (which on the evidence he’s given us so far is frankly laughable) our chairman has made it quite clear in the January of 2009 that that is his only aim
But I don’t want to see my team fail at anything. I get yanked off when i see managers put out 2nd string sides in cup competitions coz “we have other priorities” and for all I agree with some of your comments about the premier league I don’t want to see us fail in this division either. I’ll still support us & I may even get to more games but I want to see us succeed at everything
This casual acceptance of our impending relegation is another thing I find baffling from passionate supporters of the club28 February 2011 at 7:50 pm #60787I take your point VAT but backing him/and or saying we can’t change anything anyway is not doing anybody any good eitherPersonally I’ve become fed up of the incessant struggle to try & come 17th every year and for all Bobby’s talk of turning us into a top 10 side (which on the evidence he’s given us so far is frankly laughable) our chairman has made it quite clear in the January of 2009 that that is his only aim
But I don’t want to see my team fail at anything. I get yanked off when i see managers put out 2nd string sides in cup competitions coz “we have other priorities” and for all I agree with some of your comments about the premier league I don’t want to see us fail in this division either. I’ll still support us & I may even get to more games but I want to see us succeed at everything
This casual acceptance of our impending relegation is another thing I find baffling from passionate supporters of the clubWell, from my personal point of view, my most enjoyable times as a fan, were in the Championship. Have I enjoyed the last 6 years? In all honesty, no. Stopped enjoying it after the first couple of months, if truth be told.
Winning a game every blue moon, biased refs, biased press, EVERYBODY against us, aiming for 17th every season, etc etc.
I don’t want to see my team fail, either. Perhaps a more level playing field in the Championship will be a lot better to watch. More enjoyable.
28 February 2011 at 11:45 pm #60815Fall guy,no,no idea yes.10 games to go just change to 4-4-2 and lets go for it sh@t or bust.what have we got to lose.
1 March 2011 at 12:32 am #60821Anonymous
Fall guy,no,no idea yes.10 games to go just change to 4-4-2 and lets go for it sh@t or bust.what have we got to lose.errrrrmmmmmm try 30 million or more and our premier league status
:angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead:1 March 2011 at 1:36 am #60830Charlie, Hugo, Alcaraz and Al Habsi would definitely not be with us – oh and Cleverley. We wouldn’t be able to afford Boselli but he might score a few in the Championship :pray:
And then of the young players, I would think McCarthy and Moses would have clauses in their contracts where we’ll have to let them go if we get relegated. Di Santo (judging by the way he sulks) will probably have a similar clause.
We’ll want to get Figgy off the wage bill and Gohouri doesn’t want to be here.
Lopez will have long gone, although we won’t know if he’s any good or not.Do you have a feckin crystal ball up yer arse?
1 March 2011 at 2:05 am #60834Fall guy,no,no idea yes.10 games to go just change to 4-4-2 and lets go for it sh@t or bust.what have we got to lose.
errrrrmmmmmm try 30 million or more and our premier league status
:angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: [/quote]Well its apparent DW seems unconcerned about losing£30mill +,I wonder why? :roll:
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