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It obviously won’t surprise many to learn that I am pro-Martinez. This is not necessarily because I believe him to be the finished article as a coach, far from it in fact.
One of the reasons I give him my support is because I have no great expectation of this club ever having the financial muscleambition to attract the really top players and managers. “Ever”, in this case, meaning as long as Whelan is in control – not a criticism of Whelan, by the way, just a fact.
That being the case, I personally think it unrealistic to except this club to be a regular top 10 team. I think we will always struggle, regardless of the type of football we play, and that being the case I would like to see us fail trying to play football rather scrapping like dogs. That’s just my preference.
Under the not-so-rash assumption that our budgets and transfer strategy will remain the same as in recent seasons, ie buy raw and cheap and sell-on where possible, I would be interested to hear the views of those who want Martinez out to answer the following:-
1) – realistically, approximately what league position do you think Wigan as a club should be aiming to finish on a regular basis?
2) – which manager/managers do you think would/could come in to achieve the level of success you picked in 1)?
3) – how long would you give your preferred manager to achieve the target set in 1) given that you have only given Martinez one season to achieve his given target of surviving.This is not a loaded or antagonistic question. I am genuinely intrigued to know what people’s expectations are and how they expect them to be achieved.
For me, I would be broadly happy with anything from 16th-10th every year, although obviously the success of one season’s 15th, for example, can be viewed differently to another’s depending on how that particular season panned out. I’d like to think that Martinez can achieve that over the coming years. That said, a few more 8 and 9 drubbings next season might make me change my mind.
Answers on a postcard please.
Until fairly recently, I would have agreed whole-heartedly with all of the above and still agree with 95% of it but now that the season is over and I have had time to reflect, my thoughts are as follows:
1. I am really proud that “little Wigan” is still mixing it with the big boys.
2. I am really impressed with the “business model” adopted by Dave Whelan – it is the only sensible way to go and we should be grateful that we have such a shrewd, local benefactor running our club.
3. I have no real expectation that we will be able to stay in the top flight forever – I just intend to go on enjoying each moment no matter which league we are in.
4. I do think that our present squad is better than any previous ones and look forward to seeing them develop.
5. The wins against Chelsea, Villa, Liverpool and Arsenal were magic moments that will live with me forever.
6. Unlike a lot of posters on here (you know who you are), I can take defeat and forgive failure if it was suffered with honour.
7. I will always support my team through thick and thin but I object to being called a happy clapper. I prefer to keep my darker thoughts to myself and express them only when I have thought them through and when calm/sensible debate is possible.
Now for the other 5% !!!
1. I can take defeat and failure but I have real difficulty accepting embarrassment. The indignities suffered this season have (for me) overshadowed the “magic moments”. I have witnessed some dark days in the past but I can’t remember being as acutely embarrassed as I was after the Tottenham game and latterly the Chelsea debacle.
2. As previously stated, I think this is the most talented squad we have ever had so it follows that Roberto must be responsible for my deep depression.
I have come to the conclusion that Roberto must modify his “devil may care” attitude to playing football and become more realistic; bring in an experienced top flight assistant; learn from his many mistakes quickly or GO NOW.
1. I can take defeat and failure but I have real difficulty accepting embarrassment. The indignities suffered this season have (for me) overshadowed the “magic moments”. I have witnessed some dark days in the past but I can’t remember being as acutely embarrassed as I was after the Tottenham game and latterly the Chelsea debacle.2. As previously stated, I think this is the most talented squad we have ever had so it follows that Roberto must be responsible for my deep depression.
I have come to the conclusion that Roberto must modify his “devil may care” attitude to playing football and become more realistic; bring in an experienced top flight assistant; learn from his many mistakes quickly or GO NOW.
I think they’re, more or less, the words I’ve been searching for a while.
My depression isn’t as deep as yours. As a matter of fact, I’m not depressed at all, just angry about the fact that we were totally embarrassed in front of millions – again. Football couldn’t depress me.
As far as being the most talented squad we’ve had, this might well be true but as you insinuate, Roberto doesn’t know what to do with them.
Roberto’s a top bloke and all but if he’s manager next season, he’ll take us down. You don’t have to walk in front of a bus to know it’s going to hurt.
Roberto’s a top bloke and all but if he’s manager next season, he’ll take us down. You don’t have to walk in front of a bus to know it’s going to hurt.I remember certain factions saying that at the beginning of last season.
Oh and the one before that and the one before that, in fact I’ve seen it posted on here at the beginning of evry season we’ve been here. We don’t have to worry at Wigan Athletic about the press getting on our backs, we have enough of our own that do ten times the demoralising job that they do.
FA Cup Winners 2013, sounds good that
As 1932 said, if we could mirror Fulhams achievements this season, I’d certainly be happy. On a regular basis I think 10-16th is the reality Griff but a one off trip to Europe or another cup final would be nice within the next 3 years.
If I had to pick a new Manager now, Avram Grant.Well, looky here – a sensible debate!
Apart from I Wish He’d Go To Wimbledon going off track a bit :roll: and 32 disappointingly encouraging him :twisted: , we seem to be having a sensible conversation. At least know one has been called a pr!ck yet.
It would be nice if those who have been most ant-Martinez could string a few coherent sentences together in response to get both ends of the argument.
“can know one on here see that its the backroom staff who the bloody hell will take any notice of graham barrow / graham jones”
I think I posted this on another thread yesterday but for me blaming the backroom staff or saying Bobby needs to bring in an assistant experienced in the top flight is at best trying to shift the blame & at worst being completely blind to the real problem
The backroom staff are men that Roberto Martinez said to Dave Whelan that he needed. The ones he brought from Swansea like Jones, the goalkeeping coach & scout actually cost Latics a hell of alot of money & Bobby insisted they come with him before he agreed to take charge.
Once in charge Bobby decided he needed someone else & told Dave Whelan to bring in, as coach, a manager he sacked (for not being good enough) a decade and a half ago.
So for starters these people are here because Martinez has told Dave Whelan that they are the best people for the job. If people are now saying they are the cause of the problem then why on earth isn’t Martinez getting the blame for putting them in their positions in the first place???Secondly, these people are Martinez’s understudies – he meets with them & tells them what he wants Latics players to do & how he wants them to do it.
So to me they are either carrying out his instructions to the letter & that’s the cause of the problem or they aren’t doing as he asks them & Bobby fails to see it
Either way the cause of the problem (if indeed you believe there is a problem) is for the most part Roberto MartinezI’m sick & tired of hearing people making excuses for him or shifting the blame on to somebody else just coz he’s a nice bloke & a bit of a Latics legend from his playing days
“It would be nice if those who have been most ant-Martinez could string a few coherent sentences together in response to get both ends of the argument”
Griff – I typed my post above as you were typing yours
Although I was only repsonding to Wimbledon’s post I hope its coherent enough for you.
I will in due course get round to responding to your post ;)Griff – I typed my post above as you were typing yours
Although I was only repsonding to Wimbledon’s post I hope its coherent enough for you.
I will in due course get round to responding to your post ;)Just make sure you do. :D
I am genuinely interested in those (not you) who have simply called for him to be sacked or accused him of being clueless without offering any alternative solution. Or to hear where they think/expect the club to be each season and how they anticipate it being achieved under the current financial constraints.
Griff – I typed my post above as you were typing yours
Although I was only repsonding to Wimbledon’s post I hope its coherent enough for you.
I will in due course get round to responding to your post ;)Just make sure you do. :D [/i][/size]
I am genuinely interested in those (not you) who have simply called for him to be sacked or accused him of being clueless without offering any alternative solution. Or to hear where they think/expect the club to be each season and how they anticipate it being achieved under the current financial constraints.[/quote]
I’m still backing Martinez to get it right, so on the wrong side of the fence to answer you really, I think some from the dark side must look at Fulham though as an example of what we can achieve, misfit Manager Roy Hodgson (Prem anyway after his last try with Blackburn), misfit players like Murphy and Zamora and some good finds like Hangaland (spelt wrong I think), have come together to create a team that works.
I don’t know how much they’ve spent but getting players like Schwarzer free, shows that being a bit shrewd and more adaptable tactically than we’ve been, improvement is possible.
My most embarrassing moment this year was sitting with 5000 other people watching two premiership sides in the FA cup at our own ground and listening to the media after.
I think Martinez has a good core of a squad – I watch a lot of Spanish football and can see the Martinez philosophy, however, he needs to get the defence right (at times at the back, sometimes we look unbeatable and sometimes we don’t!)
Like I have said, I will judge Martinez on the 2010 – 2011 season and also what he does in Summer.
Hodgson, Zamora and Murphy..misfits.
Aye reet. :roll: :roll: :roll:You know what I mean, they’ve all failed at certain clubs in their careers, otherwise they’d still be with them.
Here you go Griff:
I never expected Bobby to be the finished article, managerial wise, but I was hoping to see some improvement over the course of the season or that he’s able to learn from his mistakes – I’ve seen neither
Like you Griff I don’t expect us to ever have the ability to attract top players & managers. As such, again like Griff I don’t expect us to be regularly pushing for the top 10 or Europe & whilst I would prefer to see my teams playing total football a manager should be able to cut his cloth accordingly & adapt his style of play & tactics to suit the players & circumstances in which he finds himself. Bobby seems almost pig-headed to be sticking with his way regardless of the results it brings – like some people on here he seems to think coz he got results against 3 big clubs that his system works whilst ignoring the results & performances from the other 30 odd games. Also whilst I like to see football played the “right way” it’s a fact that a team will not lose if it doesn’t concede. For a team like Latics, with Latics resources & ambitions the most important part of the team to get right is the defence & Bobby has been getting it horribly wrong all season – and I’m sorry but Bobby’s argument in his latest website interview that “if you take out all our heaviest defeats the defensive record is quite good” is one of the lamest I have ever heard from a manager.
On a related matter I don’t buy the argument that Bobby has us playing good football. Some of the most turgid stuff I’ve seen us play since we reached the top flight has been this season under Bobby. Its all very well having lots of possession as we did in the first half on Sunday but its of no value at all if that possession consists of lots of sideways passing, no pace, no urgency & no movement & the ease with which teams can scythe through our midfield & defence is at times excruciating to watch
1) – realistically, approximately what league position do you think Wigan as a club should be aiming to finish on a regular basis? Like you Griff I don’t think anywhere between 10th & 16th is too unrealistic. As such you could say Bobby has done that this season but I don’t think its unrealistic to expect us not to be in a relegation scrap all year or obtain our lowest points total with a record that would have got us relegated in 2 of the previous 4 seasons. As I’ve argued in the “Spot the Difference” thread a team’s league position does not tell the whole story of their season
2) – which manager/managers do you think would/could come in to achieve the level of success you picked in 1)? If Bobby was to leave/be sacked I’m of the “if you don’t ask you don’t get” school of thought. Somebody has already mentioned Avram Grant. You’ve got Mark Hughes. Alan Curbishley, Alan Pardew. I think based on their records al would do a better job than Bobby. They may all say no to the job but I don’t agree with “aim low in case we get knocked back”. If I had time I’m sure that there are others I could think of both at home & abroad
3) – how long would you give your preferred manager to achieve the target set in 1) given that you have only given Martinez one season to achieve his given target of surviving. I think a season is more than enough time to see whether a manager is heading in the right direction. People refer to Jewell’s first season when asking for Bobby to be given time but, as I’ve pointed out previously on this board, you could tell from January onwards in his first season that we were improving. A full pre-season, 2 transfer windows & 9 months of the season itself is long enough to get a handle on whether someone is improving things, learning from their mistakes, is able to adapt & can be trusted with what little transfer money Latics have. I’ve seen very little from Martinez that convinces me he can do any of that – there are other managers (like Hutchings) when its apparent from an early stage that they aren’t up to the job & its best to bite the bullet & get rid earlyUsual comprehensive reply, TL. I particularly enjoyed the numerous occurences of the phrase “Like you Griff” which I will take completely out of context :)
It is hard to disagree with most of what you say, though I really cannot ABIDE Alan Pardew.
That said, one thing we have not touched on during this debate though it is something I have mentioned on numerous occasions, is the possibility that some players are not performing because they have no respect for Martinez. They may have the “I know better than you and what have you ever done anyway” mentality. Ths may be solved by a bigger name manager but as you concede yourself, I just dont see us getting one.
From a personal viewpoint, I really like the patient passing type of football that Martinez tries to play though I can appreciate why some/most don’t and it is clear that we don’t currently have the right players to carry it off either. I will be fascinated to see who, if anyone, we bring in to try to improve things on the pitch, because I am firmly of the mind that Wheklan intends keeping Bobby in situ for the long run and so there is no point screaming for his head because it simply isn’t going to happen.
Unitl he changes his mind, of course.
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