History Of Hatred And Abuse From Fans At Matches.

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  • #93346
    Anonymous

      (make a brew, its a long read, but hopefully an interesting one)

      The big question, which is very hard to answer, is where did it all start, this hatred and sick chanting?

      These post-Hillsborough inquiry calls for an end to all the hatred between certain clubs fans is long overdue. But when did it all begin?

      Certainly, if you look back at the history of the game, there have been many incidents throughout the history. Back in the late 20’s/early 30’s, Everton’s legendary forward William Ralph ‘Dixie’ Dean, was involved in an incident not unlike that which took place in 1995 at Crystal Palace, when after much abuse, Eric Cantona of Manchester United, sought retribution with a loud mouth lout who had insulted his mother, and was duly sent to court, given community hours, and a lengthy ban from the game. Accounts from years ago tell us that Dean was being racially abused (due to his dark skin) by a Tottenham supporter during a game at White Hart Lane. At the end of the game, he climbed onto the terrace and punched the perpertrator right under the watching eye of a Police Constable, who is said to have commented “well done, he deserved that”. Oh how times change, eh?

      There were probably incidents before that as well, as I seem to remember something happening with Preston player Arthur Wharton, who was one of the first black players ever to play in England, back in the early 1900’s. However if we are talking about abuse born on the back of tragedy, it is a jump forward to 1958 and the Munich Air Disaster.

      I know what you will be thinking “yes, Liverpool and Leeds fans have been guilty over the years of singing sick songs and making gestures about Munich”. You would be correct in saying that. However you may be shocked to discover the actual origins of the ‘Munich songs’. The Munich Air Disaster happened on February 6th 1958. 8 United players died, 3 club officials, and the majority of the North West’s football journalists were among the 23 victims. By March of 1958, United had built a scratch team up to fulfil their fixtures. In March, they faced West Bromwich Albion at Old Trafford in an FA Cup Replay. During that game, a mere month after the Disaster, West Brom fans were heard to sing about ‘Man-ure’, a play on the fact that the press had started to label them ‘Man Utd’. Even worse, the ditty they chanted actually went on about “Man-ure…Duncan Edwards turning to it in his grave.” In any situation, that would be extremely bad taste. But add the fact that Edwards came from Dudley, which is as near to West Bromwich as you can get, and that in one vile chant. Especially for 1958. Ok, he played for United, not Albion. But to many, he was still their local idol, and a major star for the England team looking to win the 1958 World Cup. Other chants were heard at that game as well.

      In the aftermath of the Munich disaster, it appears that whilst many climbed on the sympathy ‘bandwagon’, there were others who got sick of it. I have heard stories about Bolton fans bemoaning in the press the fact that they were sick of the sympathy given to United, as they prepared to face them in the cup final. I have also heard stories about City fans hearing the news of the crash and rushing to the pub to celebrate. This seems unbelievable, due to the fact that one of the journalists who died was none other than ex City keeper and club legend, Frank Swift. But it is possible.

      Where do Liverpool come into it? I’m not sure. Was the hatred there in the sixties? Where did it all start? I have asked this question to a staunch Liverpool supporter. I pointed out that I seem to remember some footage from around 1969, when United trounced Liverpool at Anfield, and when Bobby Charlton fired a shot into the net at the Kop end, you could see many behind the goal applauding. He said that he has no memory of the Kop applauding Charlton’s goal. However, LFC supporting journalist Brian Reade mentions the same game in his book ’43 years with the same bird’, and the grudging admiration of that United team, and especially George Best’s talents. And let us not forget, the United manager at the time of Munich was none other than Matt Busby, a former Liverpool (and City) player. It is well documented that after Bill Shankly became manager of LFC in 1959, he struggled for the first few years and would ring his old friend Busby up for a chat, with Busby encouraging him to ‘stick at it’. He did, and look what happened? Bob Paisley, Shankly’s replacement, was also a great friend of Busby’s.
      And if we look to more recent times, the 80’s and 90’s. The rivalry turned to real hatred, with incidents of golf balls with nails stuck in, and darts being thrown into opposing fans. It was evil, make no mistake about it. The incident at Anfield in 1985 when the United players were attacked with CS gas as they left their team coach, showed just how much things had descended. Then when Sir Alex Ferguson took over at United in 1986 and stated he wanted to “knock Liverpool off their perch”, it did much to swell that hatred, at least from a Scouse perspective. But of course, then came the Hillsborough tragedy in 1989, and even the most naive of people probably thought ‘United fans will definitely use that for retribution over Munich songs’, and so it proved. The fact that our two biggest and most successful of football clubs have suffered such tragedies as Munich and Hillsborough, is such a tragic coincidence. Liverpool fans have fumed about the United fans singing about Hillsborough. But maybe they sometimes forget that their neighbouring Everton fans are also guilty of the same, though in perhaps a toned-down way with ‘murderers’ being an often heard chant at recent derby games. Everton fans are also very bitter at missing out on a chance of playing in the European Cup, with the ban that was brought in, post Hysel.

      But when the city of Liverpool is attacked, they all unite. They always have done and always will. The dockers, the riots, the redundancies, in many ways, Scousers are a persecuted breed. They felt highly ‘shat on’ by consecutive governments, especially that of Thatcher. But then again, unless you lived in rural Surrey, you were probably also ‘shat on’ by her and her government. The North West in particular, seemed so far removed from her and her little world, and yet when she spoke out after Heysel in 1985 and remarked that “the city of Liverpool has an especially violent way” she did little to improve her image in the eyes of anybody in that city. Furthermore, the failings of the government after Hillsborough are only just coming to the fore. You could argue the point of saying ‘it’s over 20 years ago now, let it go’. But would anybody feel like that if it was YOUR son, daughter, or husband who had died?

      I asked another LFC supporting friend, and Hillsborough Justice Campaign member only last year the question “not being funny, but can you just tell me what justice people actually want?” It was a sincere question. I really wasnt sure what the campaign hoped to achieve after all this time. My friend answered “the feeling is that nobody has ever been held to account for what happened, such as the Police, or rather David Dukinfield who was in charge that day. It was his first and last football match and they retired him with a massive pay-off the following year”. When you think about this, the revelations of last week go at least some way to someone actually being held to account, though you can also see the legal implications and in reality, it could still take years to properly get to the bottom of it all. (And in the huge outpouring of grief after Hillsborough, it is still a little known fact that Alex Ferguson himself, actually visited Anfield to pay his respects.) The Press we too busy releasing sensationalized headlines. Even as a Wigan fan, I would NEVER buy The Sun. I believe that that could’ve been any teams fans that day, and their sesationalized lies were potentially an attack on ALL football supporters. Remember, this was during the time of Thatchers condemnation of football supporters. Her puppet (Colin Moynihan) was charged with bringing in a membership scheme to combat hooliganism. In many ways, Hillsborough was the cherry on top of their cake. Granted, without hooliganism, perhaps it wouldn’t have happened, as there wouldn’t have been the fences. But the way Thatcher and co responded, they basically made it clear that they considered ALL football fans to be parasites.

      I’ve gone off on a bit of a Hillsborough tangent, but the fact that United fans saw it as a chance to ‘get even’ in the sick chanting stakes is well known. I myself went to a game back in 1995. It was Everton V United at Goodison Park, and I sat with my Everton supporting mates in the Gwladys Street. Sure enough, 2 minutes into the game the song fired up “Who’s that dying on the runway? Who’s that dying in the snow? Oh it’s Busby and his boys, making all the f***** noise, ’cause they couldn’t get the airplane to go”. I was sickened really. It wasn’t nice sitting amongst that. But if you look at that sick little rhyme….”Busby and his boys”…that wording, it comes from a different time. The 60’s? I presume so.
      I could explore the Leeds and West Ham history of sick chants, but I really can’t be bothered. Leeds are a club who got famous by kicking decent teams off the park, whilst West Ham, who at one time were most peoples favourite second team (the 60’s) were never an amazing side really. Both teams supporters have had ideas above their status over the years. Leeds fans still sing “European Champions” even though they lost the 1973 European Cup Final. (Robbed they may have been…but they still lost) The hatred from Leeds to Manchester United stems from the late 60’s, we know that much. West Ham? United won the league in 1967 with a 6-1 win down at the Boleyn Ground. They were hardly competitors in the sense that United and Chelsea are today, were they?

      So the cause of these sick chants and songs? Jealousy? Bitterness? On pitch rivalry? They are all factors. Blind stupidity and lack of brain cells? They are two more. I know they are hoping for an incident free day at Anfield on Sunday, with the United fans behaving themselves. I can’t see it happening though, sadly. Human society shows us that there will be at least one total idiot who has to be noticed, has to be the one who stands out. Why? Because we live in a society where people seek fame, for whatever reason. Be it infamy. How amazing would it be if both the United and Liverpool ends displayed banners which said something like “Munich 58 and Hillsborough 89. Two great clubs, Two awful Disasters. Respect. JFT96”? It would possibly be the day that football, this great game that we love, actually regained some self-respect, instead of being in the gutter all the time. But will it happen?

      “Rivalry is healthy. Hatred isn’t”.

      Addendum- I’m thinking Leeds V Bayern Munich was actually in 1974, NOT 1973 (wasnt that Ajax’s year?) as I said. Can’t be bothered googling it. Feel free to do so!

      #93355
      sanctuarymike dutton
      Player

        good read that.

        my feeling is that both clubs, most likely the players i think will do something..probably come out onto the pitch carrying something.a banner? maybe flowers or a wreath?

        they may put the cards on seats to spell something out?…i think if the kop had a message spelled out, thus the message facing the man utd fans, spelling out something with hillsborough AND munich on and something about no more sick chanting, it may diffuse any situation that could arise.

        the VERY WORST thing to do would be a minute’s silence, that would be suicidal, and if it went wrong could cause a riot.

        #93360
        The EggThe Egg
        Chairman

          Wasnt at the game but apparently the Utd fans were singing songs on Saturday about it.

          #93363
          filmossfilmoss
          Player

            Welcome back Dave, I am exhausted after reading that but a good read all the same. The thing is football fans become different people once they get onto the terraces. This can be minimal change like Swearing and shouting more than usual or major change like Inciting violence and taunting other fans or even a going over the edge change of actually fighting and causing wilful damage. It’s the tribal aspect of the game and I for one have never agreed with it and so I come under the first category of change ! Football fans when together are heartless in their chants whether it be making hissing noises to Spurs fans or Making plane gestures to Utd fans. Sick bastards but they feel it is part of the culture and so therefore I honestly believe that they don’t feel any remorse at all when “With the lads down the match” Sat at home on their own watching the news I am pretty sure that they feel empathy for victims of disasters and the like but that empathy pales into insignificance when “with the lads down the match”.I am just glad that the fighting isn’t as bad as it used to be years ago because that used to knock me sick !

            #93365

            I pointed out that I seem to remember some footage from around 1969, when United trounced Liverpool at Anfield, and when Bobby Charlton fired a shot into the net at the Kop end, you could see many behind the goal applauding. He said that he has no memory of the Kop applauding Charlton’s goal.

            It was 13 December 1969 and United won 4-1. I was on the Kop, and I can assure you we did not applaud.

            Very simply I think was that there was a hatred for United as they were successful too and had Law, Best and Charlton. Leeds were the other object of hate.

            I think that the clubs were actually quite alike, but that the fans perceived differences, if that makes sense. I was at a United game with my brother-in-law a couple of years later and some fans nearby were laughing about a group of Liverpool fans who had broken in to a clothing shop and instead of running off they had been trying on the coats. The thing was of course that you could just picture United fans doing the same. They couldn’t see that (not that I would put it to them ;) ) and celebrated how different Liverpool and United were.

            #93366
            then came the Hillsborough tragedy in 1989, and even the most naive of people probably thought ‘United fans will definitely use that for retribution over Munich songs’, and so it proved.

            Just a few things to say about United & some of their fans attitude to Hillsborough chants etc..
            1) I was at Old Trafford for a league match against Derby County on the day of the Hillsborough disaster in the Stretford End paddock (where the players tunnel is now). In the days before the internet & mobile phones dribs & drabs were coming through via people with radios. Initially it was reported as crowd trouble & there were moans that Liverpool fans were gonna keep English clubs out of europe again (the rumour was UEFA were going to lift the ban that summer) but as the first half went on you heard it was more serious & people were paying little attention to the game as reports were coming through of fatalties. At half-time an announcement came out over the tannoy that there had been an incident at Hillsborough & that reports were coming through of deaths – at that point a load of cheering went up, not from United fans as you might expect but from the Derby contingent (& it was a big chunk of em) who (I assume) thought it was Notts Forest fans effected. If I remember rightly the United fans shouted em down & even the tannoy fella had a go.
            2) 2 weeks after the disaster I was stood in the same section when they played Coventry. A group of Liverpool fans were doing a sponsored walk to raise money for the families of the victims & appeared at half-time (or just before kick off – can’t remember which) to walk round the pitch & do a collection. They were cheered & applauded all the way round & were absolutely swamped by people wanting to put money in – & not just coppers & 10p’s but big denomination notes too. I also saw plenty of grown men crying & people hugging the collectors. The Liverpool fans doing the collection looked genuinely blown away by the reaction
            3) I started to watch Latics full time the season after that but as my old man was a steward I used to get a free ticket to some of the “big games” for some years after & didn’t miss a game against the Mousers years bar when I was at Uni. I genuinely don’t recall hearing any Hillsborough chanting until the time I stopped going to United altogether in 1998 – tell a lie there was 1 incident in a game at Anfield where a group of lads (no more than say 5 or 6 of em) tried to start a chant & got shouted down by the rest of the United fans almost as soon as they started

            My point (after that lonng winded ramble!!) is that I think the main issue is the lapse of time. Any Hillsborough chanting from United fans didn’t start for a good decade or so (at least) until after the disaster & seems to have gradually crept up since then as attitudes harden, memories fade, new fans who weren’t around when it happened come along & it doesn’t help that its between 2 clubs who arguably have the biggest rivalry in English football
            In addition, the people that do such things are always in a small minority. There were a handful of Latics fans (dotted around 2 stands) that tried to disrupt the Stanley Matthews Minutes Silence but speak to a Stoke fan who was there & they won’t say “one or 2 planks shouted out” but “Wigan fans disrupted the silence”. Likewise any other incident at other similar things but people react which then makes the matter worse – let the idiots shout out, when they don’t get a reaction they’ll soon stop

            #93492
            Anonymous

              I pointed out that I seem to remember some footage from around 1969, when United trounced Liverpool at Anfield, and when Bobby Charlton fired a shot into the net at the Kop end, you could see many behind the goal applauding. He said that he has no memory of the Kop applauding Charlton’s goal.

              It was 13 December 1969 and United won 4-1. I was on the Kop, and I can assure you we did not applaud.

              Very simply I think was that there was a hatred for United as they were successful too and had Law, Best and Charlton. Leeds were the other object of hate.

              I think that the clubs were actually quite alike, but that the fans perceived differences, if that makes sense. I was at a United game with my brother-in-law a couple of years later and some fans nearby were laughing about a group of Liverpool fans who had broken in to a clothing shop and instead of running off they had been trying on the coats. The thing was of course that you could just picture United fans doing the same. They couldn’t see that (not that I would put it to them ;) ) and celebrated how different Liverpool and United were.

              In hindsight, the applause was rather sporadic and spread out to a few individuals. Despite the rivalry though, one thing Liverpool fans do know is a good player when they see one, and obviously even if you hate United, you had to admit Bobby Charlton was one hell of a player.

              TYLDSLEY, I also think your reply was superb. You made some very good points about the rivalry.

              Regarding the Stanley Matthews, sorry SIR Stanley Matthews minutes silence, I remember it very clearly. I was in the South Stand at the time and to my mind, the minutes silence was just that, until about 45 seconds into it when, clearly from OUTSIDE the ground (near South-West corner), some guy let out a rather neanderthal ‘howl’, which I can only put down to too much drink or a lack of brain cells (or both?) and this was followed up by people tutting in condemnation, and perhaps a few shouts of ‘shut up!’. Over the years, this has developed due to a case of Chinese whispers, into something completely different, and I have no doubt there are many Stoke fans who to this day, still think it was a deliberate mockery of their most famous player and their City’s favourite son. And all that from a drunken monkey who was OUTSIDE the ground.

              It really was NOT an attempt at mocking Sir Stanley’s memory. I am sure every football fan who has ever bothered to learn a bit of history, knows just what a figure he was in the game. An absolute legend.

              As regards the Merseyside-Manchester rivalry, and this is aimed towards GARSWOODLATIC and TYLDSLEYLATIC, because you can both speak from both sides perspectives (despite being converted Latics men!), but where do you think the rivalry began? I’ve asked it before and never really got a solid answer. Does it go further than football? Was the city of Liverpool peeved when Manchester built the ship canal, meaning they could ‘bypass’ the unloading in Liverpool necessity of incoming trade? Therefore, does the rivalry stem from a lot deeper than football circles? It’s something I’ve always wondered. Fella’s? Over to you….

              #93501
              As regards the Merseyside-Manchester rivalry, and this is aimed towards GARSWOODLATIC and TYLDSLEYLATIC, because you can both speak from both sides perspectives (despite being converted Latics men!), but where do you think the rivalry began? I’ve asked it before and never really got a solid answer. Does it go further than football? Was the city of Liverpool peeved when Manchester built the ship canal, meaning they could ‘bypass’ the unloading in Liverpool necessity of incoming trade? Therefore, does the rivalry stem from a lot deeper than football circles? It’s something I’ve always wondered. Fella’s? Over to you….

              It was due to the Ship Canal according to wiki Dave:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool%E2%80%93Manchester_rivalry

              #93503
              JohnDoeTony
              Player

                I tried to take the missus up the ship canal last week, and it caused arguments, so I can see the possibility.

                #93505

                I tried to take the missus up the ship canal last week is that a new position lol

                #93510
                Anonymous

                  As regards the Merseyside-Manchester rivalry, and this is aimed towards GARSWOODLATIC and TYLDSLEYLATIC, because you can both speak from both sides perspectives (despite being converted Latics men!), but where do you think the rivalry began? I’ve asked it before and never really got a solid answer. Does it go further than football? Was the city of Liverpool peeved when Manchester built the ship canal, meaning they could ‘bypass’ the unloading in Liverpool necessity of incoming trade? Therefore, does the rivalry stem from a lot deeper than football circles? It’s something I’ve always wondered. Fella’s? Over to you….

                  It was due to the Ship Canal according to wiki Dave:

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool%E2%80%93Manchester_rivalry%5B/quote%5D

                  Fair enough. I genuinely hadn’t seen that. I just thought that might be the origins of the rivalry between the two cities. Apparently, its a similar rivalry with Buenos Aires and Montevideo in South America. The only difference being, one is in Argentina, the other in Uruguay, seperated by the River Plate.

                  #93512
                  DavidGrayDavid Gray
                  Player

                    I can remember reading something along the lines of “Liverpool & Manchester, two cities not really on speaking terms, separated by the East Lancs Road”. I think it was in an old geography book about Lancashire.

                    #93524

                    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6956608.stm

                    There is of course the old (apocryphal) story that a survey was done to find out which was England’s Second City.

                    The results from Manchester indicated that they thought the second city was Manchester.

                    The results from Birmingham indicated they thought the second city was Birmingham.

                    The results from Liverpool indicated they thought the second city was London.

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