The Duke…..

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  • #96906
    jamescJamesC
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    If you ask me you lot are going far too deep into it.
    They wanted bigger money, as soon as possible with least effort (In Ellingtons case at least, if our contract was possibly worth more but was dependant on appearances etc) . A lot of it comes to greed.

    Also they may have just wanted success as quickly as possible, saw the chance to reach for the stars and did just that. (Albeit possibly the wrong decision)

    #96907
    StandishWalkerStandishWalker
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    If you ask me you lot are going far too deep into it.
    They wanted bigger money, as soon as possible with least effort (In Ellingtons case at least, if our contract was possibly worth more but was dependant on appearances etc) . A lot of it comes to greed.

    Also they may have just wanted success as quickly as possible, saw the chance to reach for the stars and did just that. (Albeit possibly the wrong decision)

    You’ve missed the point.

    Our argument is regarding who made the decision to leave and who can be blamed when their career nosedives: the player or the agent.

    #96911
    Anonymous
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    What about the muslim? The one who Ellington married….on the Friday before a game. (Really good for a player, that)

    Surely all that business played a big part in it all?

    Rumour is that Abu Quataba is actually her GRANDAD. Straight up.

    I got told that by a bloke who plays pool with a bloke who’s missus knows the sister of somebody who drinks with a bloke who knows Dave Hallam, club masseuse. :whistle:

    #96913
    jamescJamesC
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    Didn’t completely miss the point, the point of my post just didn’t come across well (Lack of effort) B)

    I believe it is the players fault personally. Unless they wanted the money, there and then and without having to ‘Develop’ for a further 12 month or so (Take the easy option basically) then they wouldnt accept it no matter what their agent said.

    Greed, laziness, Big headedness? .. No matter which one, ultimately I believe it’s the players fault.

    Edit: Post was aimed at SW’s response to mine, forgot to quote

    #96916
    StandishWalkerStandishWalker
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    Didn’t completely miss the point, the point of my post just didn’t come across well (Lack of effort) B)

    I believe it is the players fault personally. Unless they wanted the money, there and then and without having to ‘Develop’ for a further 12 month or so (Take the easy option basically) then they wouldnt accept it no matter what their agent said.

    Greed, laziness, Big headedness? .. No matter which one, ultimately I believe it’s the players fault.

    Edit: Post was aimed at SW’s response to mine, forgot to quote

    Of course it is ultimately the player’s fault, but my argument is you can only really blame them for blindly trusting an agent who is pulling all the strings for them.

    #96957
    TyldesleyLaticTyldesleyLatic
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    What about the muslim? The one who Ellington married….on the Friday before a game. (Really good for a player, that)

    Surely all that business played a big part in it all?

    Presumably on the Friday he attended training & wasn’t out beyond any club enforced curfew. That being the case & assuming, that as it was a muslim wedding, he didn’t get leathered I don’t see what difference him getting married the day before a game made. He may well have eaten, had a dance & got a bit of how’s your father but then (dancing apart) I’m sure most of the players did that day.
    In the long term I doubt one iota that convertign to Islam made any difference to his capabilities as a footballer. There are plenty of muslim footballers the world over including some who are/have been amongst the best in the world.
    And again, Nathan Ellington made the decision to become a Muslim, no-one else

    The way some people are talking its as if he’s some kind of mindless automoton

    #96962
    StandishWalkerStandishWalker
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    Presumably on the Friday he attended training & wasn’t out beyond any club enforced curfew. That being the case & assuming, that as it was a muslim wedding, he didn’t get leathered I don’t see what difference him getting married the day before a game made. He may well have eaten, had a dance & got a bit of how’s your father but then (dancing apart) I’m sure most of the players did that day.
    In the long term I doubt one iota that convertign to Islam made any difference to his capabilities as a footballer. There are plenty of muslim footballers the world over including some who are/have been amongst the best in the world.
    And again, Nathan Ellington made the decision to become a Muslim, no-one else

    The way some people are talking its as if he’s some kind of mindless automoton

    And conversely Tyldesley, you’re making him sound like a maverick with scant regard for protocol or authority!

    My point is – as you well know – yes the player has the final decision in the destiny, but many of them trust their agents and advisers so implicitly that they’ll follow their instructions without question.

    Incidentally I was told last night by someone that reads this forum that Ellington’s conversion to Islam was heavily influenced by his brother who’d converted some time before him. Again it was his final decision to do so, but it was hardly a show of individualism.

    #96965
    jamescJamesC
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    Didn’t completely miss the point, the point of my post just didn’t come across well (Lack of effort) B)

    I believe it is the players fault personally. Unless they wanted the money, there and then and without having to ‘Develop’ for a further 12 month or so (Take the easy option basically) then they wouldnt accept it no matter what their agent said.

    Greed, laziness, Big headedness? .. No matter which one, ultimately I believe it’s the players fault.

    Edit: Post was aimed at SW’s response to mine, forgot to quote

    Of course it is ultimately the player’s fault, but my argument is you can only really blame them for blindly trusting an agent who is pulling all the strings for them.[/quote]

    I don’t really agree to be honest. Whether the players trust their agents or not. It is simple, if they wanted to stay at the club, they would do so regardless of what their agents say.

    #96969
    filmossfilmoss
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    In a nutshell he fcuked up ! Big deal, lets move on shall we. As many of you have said in the past Championship strikers don’t always cut it with the big boys ! ;)

    #96970
    jamescJamesC
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    In a nutshell he fcuked up ! Big deal, lets move on shall we. As many of you have said in the past Championship strikers don’t always cut it with the big boys ! ;)

    Although they dont always cut it, I genuinely believe had Ellington stayed put (With us) he would have kept his form in the prem. I actually rated him so highly that before he signed for WBA I could have seen him playing for England! B)

    #96971
    StandishWalkerStandishWalker
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    I don’t really agree to be honest. Whether the players trust their agents or not. It is simple, if they wanted to stay at the club, they would do so regardless of what their agents say.

    So you don’t think some of these players who have been mollycoddled all their lives – who aren’t even trusted to keep their own passports, and who have to have minibars emptied in hotel rooms because they’d be tempted to eat and drink everything in it, and who have ‘lifestyle management’ companies come round to change their lightbulbs at home would have the bottle and rationale to refuse to follow the advice of their agents when he tells them ‘Stick with me and I’ll get you a good deal out of this’?

    If you don’t think there are any, fair enough.

    I happen to think there might be one or two.

    #96973
    filmossfilmoss
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    In a nutshell he fcuked up ! Big deal, lets move on shall we. As many of you have said in the past Championship strikers don’t always cut it with the big boys ! ;)

    Although they dont always cut it, I genuinely believe had Ellington stayed put (With us) he would have kept his form in the prem. I actually rated him so highly that before he signed for WBA I could have seen him playing for England! B)[/quote]

    Don’t you know that players from The Championship do not make it in the Prem ! ;)

    #96975
    jamescJamesC
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    I don’t really agree to be honest. Whether the players trust their agents or not. It is simple, if they wanted to stay at the club, they would do so regardless of what their agents say.

    So you don’t think some of these players who have been mollycoddled all their lives – who aren’t even trusted to keep their own passports, and who have to have minibars emptied in hotel rooms because they’d be tempted to eat and drink everything in it, and who have ‘lifestyle management’ companies come round to change their lightbulbs at home would have the bottle and rationale to refuse to follow the advice of their agents when he tells them ‘Stick with me and I’ll get you a good deal out of this’?

    If you don’t think there are any, fair enough.

    I happen to think there might be one or two.[/quote]

    A little over the top but, yeah I do agree some of them may rely on other people too much, therefore may be taken advantage of for the purpose of the Agents pocket. If the player was advised that progression at his current club would be more beneficial for him, and he chooses to ignore that, then still he is solely to blame.

    #96976
    jamescJamesC
    Player
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    In a nutshell he fcuked up ! Big deal, lets move on shall we. As many of you have said in the past Championship strikers don’t always cut it with the big boys ! ;)

    Although they dont always cut it, I genuinely believe had Ellington stayed put (With us) he would have kept his form in the prem. I actually rated him so highly that before he signed for WBA I could have seen him playing for England! B)[/quote]

    Don’t you know that players from The Championship do not make it in the Prem ! ;)[/quote]

    Pardon? :huh:

    #96977
    TyldesleyLaticTyldesleyLatic
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    Presumably on the Friday he attended training & wasn’t out beyond any club enforced curfew. That being the case & assuming, that as it was a muslim wedding, he didn’t get leathered I don’t see what difference him getting married the day before a game made. He may well have eaten, had a dance & got a bit of how’s your father but then (dancing apart) I’m sure most of the players did that day.
    In the long term I doubt one iota that convertign to Islam made any difference to his capabilities as a footballer. There are plenty of muslim footballers the world over including some who are/have been amongst the best in the world.
    And again, Nathan Ellington made the decision to become a Muslim, no-one else

    The way some people are talking its as if he’s some kind of mindless automoton

    And conversely Tyldesley, you’re making him sound like a maverick with scant regard for protocol or authority!

    My point is – as you well know – yes the player has the final decision in the destiny, but many of them trust their agents and advisers so implicitly that they’ll follow their instructions without question.

    Incidentally I was told last night by someone that reads this forum that Ellington’s conversion to Islam was heavily influenced by his brother who’d converted some time before him. Again it was his final decision to do so, but it was hardly a show of individualism.[/quote]

    Its not my intention to make him sound like anything other than a normal person like everybody else who just happened to be half decent at football
    Even if the story you’ve just put about his conversion to a religion is true down to the last letter & even if he is/was one of these players who does everything his agent says coz he trusts him implicitly then the fault for anything that goes wrong/right with his life/career as a result of those decisions is still solely Nathan Ellington’s fault & no-one elses

    Personally with regards to whether he’d have been good for Latics in the top flight, I have my doubts. I think some people have let time mist what he was like as a player – yes he was capable of looking top drawer but he was also equally capable of going for long stretches of looking like he had the talent of Phil Daley. Look at his goalscoring record for Latics. His goals came in gluts so he’d score say 6 in 8 then go 6 games without a goal then get 5 in 6, go 7 games without a goal etc.. I remember an away game one evening at Stockport (which division we were in escapes me) & he missed an absolute sitter when he was 1 on 1 with the keeper. he had a stinker the next game too at the JJB & as I was coming away from the game I lost count of the number of people slating him & saying Jewell should drop him. And lets not forget that Jewell dropped him at the back end of the championship promotion season in favour of Brett Ormerod for a couple of games coz his form had dipped
    So he was never guaranteed to be good at this level. he was one of the ultimate confidence players – if it was high then nowt could stop him, but if the goals dried up his head dropped & his effort levels fell too. His problem at WBA was that Robson was never prepared to give him a run of games to overcome that dip & he was in & out of the side. Now Jewell may well have persevered with him if he’s started the season badly but I see no evidence that if he’d come good that he would have maintained that constantly because he hadn’t done before

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