29 years ago today

Forums Latics Crazy Forum 29 years ago today

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  • #131530
    The EggThe Egg
    Chairman

      39 Italians went to watch their team in the European Cup Final and never came home.

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/768380.stm

      RIP

      #131535

      I seem to remember one being a Brit.

      #131536
      filmossfilmoss
      Player

        Yet also 29 years ago ( 11th May 1985 ) this tragedy happened yet it hardly ever gets mentioned?

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_City_stadium_fire

        #131556
        39 Italians went to watch their team in the European Cup Final and never came home.
        RIP

        Yeah, my Facebook feed is full of scousers asking us all to commemorate this tragic event in football history and offer up our respect and condolencies for the Italian and Belgian lives that were lost that day.

        Oh hang on.. no it wasn’t. They must have forgotten.

        #131559
        The EggThe Egg
        Chairman

          39 Italians went to watch their team in the European Cup Final and never came home.
          RIP

          Yeah, my Facebook feed is full of scousers asking us all to commemorate this tragic event in football history and offer up our respect and condolencies for the Italian and Belgian lives that were lost that day.

          Oh hang on.. no it wasn’t. They must have forgotten.[/quote]

          I’ll be honest, the post was slightly tongue in cheek for that exact reason ;)

          #131560
          The EggThe Egg
          Chairman
            Yet also 29 years ago ( 11th May 1985 ) this tragedy happened yet it hardly ever gets mentioned?

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_City_stadium_fire

            It doesn’t you’re right.

            RIP to those involved

            #131565

            Bloody hell, were they both 29 years ago? I remember being on holiday in Aberystwyth for the Heysel Disaster & watching it all in the campsite clubhouse – can remember it clear as day & its hard to believe it was that long ago.

            As for the Heysel tragedy itself, anyone who knows me knows that I have no particular fondness for Scousers but I will kind of stick up for them about this. Any research into it will tell you that the Juventus fans in the neutral section next to the Scousers were as to blame for the trouble starting as the Liverpool fans were. Had the ground been of an adequate standard then the wall against which the Juventus fans had backed up against would not have collapsed and it would have just been a case of serious crowd trouble.
            For Liverpool fans to basically wind up taking all the official blame for it was/is IMO wrong. To then ban all English clubs from European competition whilst Juventus had to play a couple of games behind closed doors was also wrong.

            It’s only one person’s viewpoint, but the evening before the Hillsborough commission reported a couple of years back I was talking to a Liverpool fan who was at Hillsborough that day by the gate when it was opened & also in the section where it kicked off at Heysel. He’s the only Liverpool fan I’ve ever heard say that the police can’t be given all the blame for what happened at Hillsborough & that the conduct of some Liverpool supporters that day also contributed towards it. When it came to Heysel though, he was adamant that the whole chain of events was started by the Juventus fans in that section where the wall collapsed – said they’d had to put up with all sorts of bottles, coins & more being launched at them & they were getting spat on. And that after the police standing by for ages doing nothing (if they’d just filled the gap between the 2 temporary chicken wire fences it would have stopped it), the Liverpool fans pulled down the fences & attacked the Juventus fans who ran, backed up against the wall & it collapsed. A little research will pretty much back than chain of events up.
            That’s not to excuse what happened at all but its nowhere near as simple as saying the Liverpool fans caused it. And yes they seem to make very little of the anniversary.

            I watched footage of the Bradford fire last year as part of a fire safety training course in work. Feckin frightening how quickly that spread & even more tragic when you consider that after several warnings about the stand & accumulation of rubbish in the void between the seating terrace & the stand below, the stand had been condemned & demolition was due to begin on it 2 days after the game

            #131567
            The EggThe Egg
            Chairman
              He’s the only Liverpool fan I’ve ever heard say that the police can’t be given all the blame for what happened at Hillsborough & that the conduct of some Liverpool supporters that day also contributed towards it.

              That’s the bit that frustrates me about it. If they held their hands up and said “We were in the wrong but the police were also to blame” then I would back them all the way but the typical Scouse response of “Wasn’t our fault” p*sses me right off.

              #131573

              He’s the only Liverpool fan I’ve ever heard say that the police can’t be given all the blame for what happened at Hillsborough & that the conduct of some Liverpool supporters that day also contributed towards it.

              That’s the bit that frustrates me about it. If they held their hands up and said “We were in the wrong but the police were also to blame” then I would back them all the way but the typical Scouse response of “Wasn’t our fault” p*sses me right off.[/quote]

              That’s been my beef with it right from the beginning. If you are to believe every scouser that I have ever talked to about this, that semi-final was the only football match in history where there wasn’t one single drunk supporter.

              Not saying for one minute that drunk supporters were to blame. or that the thing wasn’t a huge tragedy, but what’s the harm in admitting some fans turned up drunk? Don’t they always?

              #131574

              He’s the only Liverpool fan I’ve ever heard say that the police can’t be given all the blame for what happened at Hillsborough & that the conduct of some Liverpool supporters that day also contributed towards it.

              That’s the bit that frustrates me about it. If they held their hands up and said “We were in the wrong but the police were also to blame” then I would back them all the way but the typical Scouse response of “Wasn’t our fault” p*sses me right off.[/quote]

              Were the spurs fans 8 years before in their semi final with wolves also “to blame”

              The archaic design of the stadium and incompetence of the police were the cause of Hillsborough, the drunken bad behaviour was vastly over stated by police and government personnel and fed to a frenzied media pack looking for any anti football fan scoop. That’s the same media that reported they had evidence of deliberate arsonists or saw fans throwing fireworks, in the week after the Bradford disaster.
              The crime at Hillsborough and why it is still relevant was not the tragedy on the day, but the fact the police and government lied and altered their statements to save their own skins at the expense of the feelings of those left behind, and in a so called civilised society were we expect the Police to serve and protect us all irrespective if we watch football or not, that is not just a disgrace but criminal and totally unforgivable.

              #131576
              The EggThe Egg
              Chairman
                The crime at Hillsborough and why it is still relevant was not the tragedy on the day, but the fact the police and government lied and altered their statements to save their own skins at the expense of the feelings of those left behind, and in a so called civilised society were we expect the Police to serve and protect us all irrespective if we watch football or not.

                Which is exactly why I would back them all the way if there weren’t the claims from Liverpool fans mentioned above by Griff that there was not one single drunken fan nor did one single fan try to gain access without a ticket.

                They still to this day try to get into grounds with no ticket and brag about it (see Athens 2007) when they do.

                An absolute tragedy that I hope never happens again don’t get me wrong but as I said the whole “nothing to do with us” attitude has tainted what should be something that the whole footballing population should be behind.

                I also disagree with the judge in the latest hearings making a statement that this is the biggest tragedy in British sporting history. Who is he to make that call? I would guess that the families of those who lost their lives at Bradford, Rangers or Munich even would disagree massively.

                #131578
                Were the spurs fans 8 years before in their semi final with wolves also “to blame”

                The archaic design of the stadium and incompetence of the police were the cause of Hillsborough, the drunken bad behaviour was vastly over stated by police and government personnel and fed to a frenzied media pack looking for any anti football fan scoop. That’s the same media that reported they had evidence of deliberate arsonists or saw fans throwing fireworks, in the week after the Bradford disaster.
                The crime at Hillsborough and why it is still relevant was not the tragedy on the day, but the fact the police and government lied and altered their statements to save their own skins at the expense of the feelings of those left behind, and in a so called civilised society were we expect the Police to serve and protect us all irrespective if we watch football or not, that is not just a disgrace but criminal and totally unforgivable.

                With regards to Spurs in 1981 & its relevance to Hillsborough I think it came to light at the inquest the other year that the capacity of that standing section had been calculated using an incorrect formula so its official capacity was way above what it could safely hold. The pens they put in the standing section were designed so entrance into areas that were full could be closed off & to act as secondary crush barriers to stop sideways momentum of the crowd. The problem was that if you’re trying to put too many people in there its always going to be future problems.
                Incidentally I was in the seating section above Leppings Lance terrace for a United v Sheff Wed league game some time in the mid 80’s. Whilst I couldn’t see everything that was going on from my seat there was clearly some issue at that game coz despite the fact that the game was all ticket they had to open up a big section of terrace where the floodlight was (to the right as you look at the stand from the pitch) & that ended up pretty much full too.

                Anyway, the point the guy I spoke to was making was that yes there were fans there who had had too much to drink, yes there were Liverpool fans without tickets trying to gain entry to the ground, yes there were fans who got to the turnstiles relatively late on in the day & yes some were trying to force the gate (some coz they didn’t have a ticket & others coz they were getting crushed outside). He was prepared to accept that all that happened & contributed to the situation the police had to manage on the day.
                He also said though, & its somet I agree with, that these were an expected occurrence for big games at the time & measures should have been put in place to account for that. And they weren’t. I believe that the entrance to the turnstiles has changed now but at the time you were funnelled into quite a narrow area off the main road – at that United game I went to, the police simply put a line of coppers at points on the road either side of the turnstile entrance & your tickets were checked. It stopped those without tickets getting any further & controlled the flow of people getting to the turnstile. Yes it didn’t solve the problem that occurred in the ground but it prevented any problem outside & ultimately for the semi-final the situation outside is what caused the gate to be opened & allowed the surge of people into the middle pens.

                There were loads of other issues at play that day, some of which were long standing issues & some of which were factors on the day and some were bigger contributing factors than others.

                Like you’ve said though LMB, I think people can accept mistakes to a certain degree if they’re admitted. What compounded these mistakes though is the authorities from top to bottom then lying & covering up their mistakes & attempting to shift the blame wholly on to the supporters. I think that’s why the Liverpool supporters stance has ended up becoming one of complete denial of anything at all even to the extreme of things that were common place at the time – although lets not forget that even the Woolf Report cleared the Liverpool supporters of any blame & even that appears to have played some part in glossing over the role of the authorities

                #131579

                As has already been said, there are two aspects of Hillsborough;

                1. the cause of the overcrowding and the lack of planning by the authorities involved, and

                2. the cover-up by the authorities which started immediately after the tragedy.

                It’s incredible that investigations into both are still being carried out today. This is largely due to the perseverance of the Liverpool fans and their families.

                Faith in police evidence has been badly shaken now that it has become clear that the police have been involved in a number of similar cases. Jean Charles de Menezes, Ian Tomlinson, Stephen Lawrence, the miners’ strike, the Shrewsbury pickets, corruption at the Met and Plebgate all quickly come to mind.

                All the fans who have died in tragedies should be remembered, together with their families and friends. Fans and the authorities associated with football should work together to prevent any recurrence.

                Even now, not all stewards are sympathetic to fans. At the Etihad, Wigan fans were keeping a giant beach ball in the air – a harmless way to pass the time until kick-off. Yet when the ball went onto the pitch, a steward took great pleasure in stabbing it with a knife.

                This behaviour seemed designed to antagonise good-humoured fans. In contrast, at Wembley, when a similar beach ball went onto the pitch, the stewards went out of their way to return it to the fans.

                #131589

                It seems Heysel has been airbrushed out of English football history to appease the Pity City.

                “Always the Victim – Never our Fault”

                RIP the 39.

                #131595
                Even now, not all stewards are sympathetic to fans. At the Etihad, Wigan fans were keeping a giant beach ball in the air – a harmless way to pass the time until kick-off. Yet when the ball went onto the pitch, a steward took great pleasure in stabbing it with a knife.

                :ohmy:

                I too echo the sentiments of Griff and The Egg – they will not accept their part of the blame and their ‘recollection’ of the events will be tainted in their favour, especially as it has already been disclosed that the Police tampered with their statements etc. This will now turn into a one-sided persecution of the police and the ground owners with millions being demanded in compensation. Justice for all my arris – it’s always been about the money. Bit strong, I know, and I am very sympathetic to all those who died and their close relatives who were affected but just watch all the freeloaders jump on the bandwagon – the no win, no fee ambulance chasers are going to have a field day (and become very rich with it).

                Someone mentioned earlier about the 2007 incident – totally despicable actions by the scousers stealing fellow fans tickets and bragging about it, and again trying to get over the barriers to get in even though they didn’t have tickets – outrageous.

                Let’s see how impartial the findings from the inquest really are.

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