In Defence of Joyce

Forums Cockney Latic Main Forum In Defence of Joyce

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 42 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #156297
    Atletico WiganShane
    Player
    • 2 Posts Started
    • 6 Total Posts

    In Defence of Warren Joyce

    Joyce was appointed by Sharp with the future development of the club in mind. With the parachute payments expiring this season the club faces an uncertain future. Financially we cannot compete with the majority of clubs in the Championship – this is common sense. Our attendances are poor, we sell next to no merchandise, and our chairman is a pauper compared to others in the top two divisions. The way I see it the club has one option available to it: to recruit talented young players, develop them and then sell at a profit. Fail to do this and we will fade into obscurity.

    During our rise to the Premier League in the mid noughties we were accused of buying the league. The £1.4million spent on Jason Roberts was considered to undermine the integrity of the competition. Whereas Whelan’s financial clout has remained the same, however, the money thrown around in the Championship has spiralled out of control. Look at the cash splashed by some of our rivals this season. Rhodes, McCormack, Gayle, Pritchard… Norwich have spent £7million improving their bench! We can’t go toe to toe with these clubs; the game is up as far as that is concerned. We have to try something different. The club knows this and the appointment of Joyce is an acknowledgement of this fact.

    As far as getting in a manager with experience of developing young players we couldn’t have done much better on paper. He knows the youth and reserve league systems in England as well as anyone. He has contacts at clubs up and down the country. His record at Man Utd is impressive (as it should be). The big question is, and remains, is he capable of replicating that success when he is the main man in charge? I honestly don’t think we have seen enough to judge him on that yet. He needs a summer transfer window (regardless of what division we are in). We need to see what becomes of the players he brought in in January – will they become integral players next season? If we sacked him now we could live to regret it.

    One thing that I am certain of is that Caldwell was never good enough. He was the cheap option appointed at the lowest point in the club’s recent history. Even last season some of his tactical decisions were baffling. He’d often make the wrong substitutions or set up the wrong way. We were promoted last year despite Caldwell in my opinion. We had the strongest squad in the league, the biggest wage bill (probably?), and the likes of Wildschut and Grigg were a class above anyone else in the league. This summer something obviously went on behind the scenes. Pearce leaving was puzzling; Morgan nearly went as well; the Morsy loan, as proven by his return, was madness. We knew we needed a striker yet ended up with Le Fondre – an almost identical option to Grigg -at the last minute. We had, and still have, one of the weakest squads in the division yet Caldwell set up to play free flowing Barca style football. It was madness. Surely you have got to fit the system to the players you have, not the players to the system regardless of ability. Look at the mess he made of Buxton and Burn. By asking them to play like Pique and Puyol he turned them into the Chuckle Brothers. To his credit Joyce as at least fixed those problems. You could make a strong argument for Burn being our best player since Joyce came in, a player who many wanted gone under Caldwell.

    We will never know, but under Caldwell I seriously doubt that we would be in a better situation than what we currently find ourselves. The common problem faced by both managers this season is that they are working with a poor squad. I don’t like having a go at our own players, and especially this group as they clearly are giving their all and care strongly about the club. However, when all is said and done, some of them just don’t cut it at this level. Grigg has found it too difficult. He is a goal poacher and will do well in any team that creates lots of chances. Unfortunately this season we haven’t been able to give him the service he requires. As a result, we’ve need a striker who can offer more, someone who is either strong or quick or both; someone who can hold it up and create chances for themselves. I don’t think Grigg is that man; he’s too slow and doesn’t have enough of a physical presence.

    The big failing that has killed us all season, and the reason why we are going down, is a lack of creativity. We got away with it to some extent when Wildschut was here. With his pace he dug us out of a few holes but was never consistent enough to make a massive difference. You could say we have been unlucky in this regard. We had Wildschut, Gomez, Gilbey, Powell and Jacobs. On paper at least they looked like they could do the business. Gilbey and Powell have had their seasons ruined by injuries though, Jacobs has struggled (although in fairness to him works his arse off), and Gomez wasn’t the same player he once was. The sale of Wildschut and Gomez was the final nail in the coffin as far as creativity was concerned. We made ourselves weaker in our weakest department. Joyce cannot be blamed for this. £7million had to be accepted and apparently the Gomez move was agreed before he arrived. Yes we could have looked to bring creative players in. I would argue though that he did that in Bogle, Obertan and Weir. The January transfer window went well considering our position. Who wants to sign for a club desperately struggling in a relegation battle? The players who did sign seemed genuinely pleased to be at Wigan and all cited Joyce as a main reason for signing.

    The majority of abuse leveled at Joyce at the moment concerns his defensive tactics, in particular his decision to use 4 centre midfielders across the middle. I think he’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. If he plays one upfront he gets stick, if he plays two upfront he gets stick. Grigg should play every game in the opinion of some – despite offering nothing all season. Joyce is obviously aware that we are a poor team and is wary of setting up to be attacking. The reason for this is obvious: the same thing will happen that was happening under Caldwell. Better teams will deal with our threats and then easily pick us apart. At least Joyce has made us difficult to beat. The defence has been solid since he came in and across that unadventurous and boring midfield we have at least some players who will get stuck in and fight for the ball. It’s boring to watch but there is a reason for it. He has taken the calculated risk that if we play this way we can pick up enough wins to survive. Obviously this isn’t happening and his hand is going to be forced into taking more risks – this will probably happen this week. What those risks will be isn’t clear. Do we start with Obertan on the wing? Bring Weir back in? Gilbey could return in the centre of midfield? Grigg upfront with Bogle? I can’t see any of those options being a magic remedy. We have struggled all season because the options available to both managers have been poor. We have a weak team that isn’t, despite all their efforts, good enough.

    I think give the guy a chance. If we go down let him rebuild in the summer and try again. These are difficult times for the club and things will get harder post parachute payments. We need to stick by a manager and give him some time. Chopping and changing every six months will never work.

    #156299
    snowblindjeff westwell
    Player
    • 19 Posts Started
    • 796 Total Posts

    I’d put that tin hat on now if I was you?

    #156301
    NuneatonlaticNuneatonlatic
    Player
    • 249 Posts Started
    • 4,595 Total Posts
    In Defence of Warren Joyce

    Joyce was appointed by Sharp with the future development of the club in mind. With the parachute payments expiring this season the club faces an uncertain future. Financially we cannot compete with the majority of clubs in the Championship – this is common sense. Our attendances are poor, we sell next to no merchandise, and our chairman is a pauper compared to others in the top two divisions. The way I see it the club has one option available to it: to recruit talented young players, develop them and then sell at a profit. Fail to do this and we will fade into obscurity.

    During our rise to the Premier League in the mid noughties we were accused of buying the league. The £1.4million spent on Jason Roberts was considered to undermine the integrity of the competition. Whereas Whelan’s financial clout has remained the same, however, the money thrown around in the Championship has spiralled out of control. Look at the cash splashed by some of our rivals this season. Rhodes, McCormack, Gayle, Pritchard… Norwich have spent £7million improving their bench! We can’t go toe to toe with these clubs; the game is up as far as that is concerned. We have to try something different. The club knows this and the appointment of Joyce is an acknowledgement of this fact.

    As far as getting in a manager with experience of developing young players we couldn’t have done much better on paper. He knows the youth and reserve league systems in England as well as anyone. He has contacts at clubs up and down the country. His record at Man Utd is impressive (as it should be). The big question is, and remains, is he capable of replicating that success when he is the main man in charge? I honestly don’t think we have seen enough to judge him on that yet. He needs a summer transfer window (regardless of what division we are in). We need to see what becomes of the players he brought in in January – will they become integral players next season? If we sacked him now we could live to regret it.

    One thing that I am certain of is that Caldwell was never good enough. He was the cheap option appointed at the lowest point in the club’s recent history. Even last season some of his tactical decisions were baffling. He’d often make the wrong substitutions or set up the wrong way. We were promoted last year despite Caldwell in my opinion. We had the strongest squad in the league, the biggest wage bill (probably?), and the likes of Wildschut and Grigg were a class above anyone else in the league. This summer something obviously went on behind the scenes. Pearce leaving was puzzling; Morgan nearly went as well; the Morsy loan, as proven by his return, was madness. We knew we needed a striker yet ended up with Le Fondre – an almost identical option to Grigg -at the last minute. We had, and still have, one of the weakest squads in the division yet Caldwell set up to play free flowing Barca style football. It was madness. Surely you have got to fit the system to the players you have, not the players to the system regardless of ability. Look at the mess he made of Buxton and Burn. By asking them to play like Pique and Puyol he turned them into the Chuckle Brothers. To his credit Joyce as at least fixed those problems. You could make a strong argument for Burn being our best player since Joyce came in, a player who many wanted gone under Caldwell.

    We will never know, but under Caldwell I seriously doubt that we would be in a better situation than what we currently find ourselves. The common problem faced by both managers this season is that they are working with a poor squad. I don’t like having a go at our own players, and especially this group as they clearly are giving their all and care strongly about the club. However, when all is said and done, some of them just don’t cut it at this level. Grigg has found it too difficult. He is a goal poacher and will do well in any team that creates lots of chances. Unfortunately this season we haven’t been able to give him the service he requires. As a result, we’ve need a striker who can offer more, someone who is either strong or quick or both; someone who can hold it up and create chances for themselves. I don’t think Grigg is that man; he’s too slow and doesn’t have enough of a physical presence.

    The big failing that has killed us all season, and the reason why we are going down, is a lack of creativity. We got away with it to some extent when Wildschut was here. With his pace he dug us out of a few holes but was never consistent enough to make a massive difference. You could say we have been unlucky in this regard. We had Wildschut, Gomez, Gilbey, Powell and Jacobs. On paper at least they looked like they could do the business. Gilbey and Powell have had their seasons ruined by injuries though, Jacobs has struggled (although in fairness to him works his arse off), and Gomez wasn’t the same player he once was. The sale of Wildschut and Gomez was the final nail in the coffin as far as creativity was concerned. We made ourselves weaker in our weakest department. Joyce cannot be blamed for this. £7million had to be accepted and apparently the Gomez move was agreed before he arrived. Yes we could have looked to bring creative players in. I would argue though that he did that in Bogle, Obertan and Weir. The January transfer window went well considering our position. Who wants to sign for a club desperately struggling in a relegation battle? The players who did sign seemed genuinely pleased to be at Wigan and all cited Joyce as a main reason for signing.

    The majority of abuse leveled at Joyce at the moment concerns his defensive tactics, in particular his decision to use 4 centre midfielders across the middle. I think he’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. If he plays one upfront he gets stick, if he plays two upfront he gets stick. Grigg should play every game in the opinion of some – despite offering nothing all season. Joyce is obviously aware that we are a poor team and is wary of setting up to be attacking. The reason for this is obvious: the same thing will happen that was happening under Caldwell. Better teams will deal with our threats and then easily pick us apart. At least Joyce has made us difficult to beat. The defence has been solid since he came in and across that unadventurous and boring midfield we have at least some players who will get stuck in and fight for the ball. It’s boring to watch but there is a reason for it. He has taken the calculated risk that if we play this way we can pick up enough wins to survive. Obviously this isn’t happening and his hand is going to be forced into taking more risks – this will probably happen this week. What those risks will be isn’t clear. Do we start with Obertan on the wing? Bring Weir back in? Gilbey could return in the centre of midfield? Grigg upfront with Bogle? I can’t see any of those options being a magic remedy. We have struggled all season because the options available to both managers have been poor. We have a weak team that isn’t, despite all their efforts, good enough.

    I think give the guy a chance. If we go down let him rebuild in the summer and try again. These are difficult times for the club and things will get harder post parachute payments. We need to stick by a manager and give him some time. Chopping and changing every six months will never work.

    Keep him and watch ticket sales dwindle how are the club gonna sell season cards next season to watch the worst football in Wigan Athletics proud successful history. Sack him now and admit he has been an un mitigating disaster.

    #156302
    grumpygrumpy
    Player
    • 114 Posts Started
    • 938 Total Posts

    Utter crap :evil: the season has gone to cock and the club will be lucky to survive, successive managers have brought in shit and Yootha is at fault for half of that ,glad i’m away now to de stress back for the Toon and a good piss up.

    #156303
    Argus69Neil Ferguson
    Player
    • 49 Posts Started
    • 762 Total Posts

    An eloquant well reasoned argument.

    I do agree with a lot of what you say. He and the young players have been brought in in readiness for next year in League 1.

    However if this health scare turns out to be more serious and he’s unable to continue, the plan will spectacularly backfire I fear ………… :(

    #156305
    psklpaul tymon
    Player
    • 93 Posts Started
    • 1,375 Total Posts

    Can’t see him still being the manager for next season.

    #156306
    donnys pageDonnys Page
    Player
    • 580 Posts Started
    • 5,361 Total Posts

    In defence of Joyce he didn’t appoint himself. He didn’t have proven Championship experience over a number of years yet was still appointed. He doesn’t control the purse strings. He didn’t get shut of a squad of winners. He didn’t squander 8 years of Premiership money and 4 years of parachute payments and have nothing to show for it. He didn’t spend money on a golf course in Chorley then leave it for sheep to graze on.
    However he came in, tried to work within the constraints put on him like selling Yanic and Gomez but bringing in players for a relegation struggle who are not fit or interested and settling for a point before kick off is just not acceptable.
    We are owned by one of the wealthiest families in the country so why are we in this situation. Who is this predicament down to Joycey or the owners???

    #156307
    bigroybigroy
    Player
    • 47 Posts Started
    • 1,063 Total Posts

    ‘In defence of Joyce’. Well it would hardly be ‘attack’ with that mons tactics!

    #156309
    psklpaul tymon
    Player
    • 93 Posts Started
    • 1,375 Total Posts

    Whelan/sharpe are to blame for doing everything on the cheap. Especially managerial appointments

    #156313
    bickymonbickymon
    Player
    • 208 Posts Started
    • 2,217 Total Posts

    Look the whelan family stopped funding this club with their own finances after the fa cup win thats all owd oh feel sorry for me i broke my leg shit
    Now we are fxxxd because where do we get money from to keep this club going ._.The whelans got 7m for the only asset we had left to selll
    This club is fxxxxd unless we can find a buyer._and it wont happen ._whelans can fxxx off
    Yea im well pissed off as you can see ._but ill speak my mind about my club unlike some ass lickers

    #156316
    SammySammy
    Player
    • 61 Posts Started
    • 2,252 Total Posts
    Look the whelan family stopped funding this club with their own finances after the fa cup win thats all owd oh feel sorry for me i broke my leg shit
    Now we are fxxxd because where do we get money from to keep this club going ._.The whelans got 7m for the only asset we had left to selll
    This club is fxxxxd unless we can find a buyer._and it wont happen ._whelans can fxxx off
    Yea im well pissed off as you can see ._but ill speak my mind about my club unlike some ass lickers

    I’ wonder if Whelan is sipping his gin and tonic over in Barbados thinking why the fuck did I bother.

    #156317
    bickymonbickymon
    Player
    • 208 Posts Started
    • 2,217 Total Posts

    Whelan was at the game did you not see him ?

    #156318
    SammySammy
    Player
    • 61 Posts Started
    • 2,252 Total Posts
    Whelan was at the game did you not see him ?

    I didn’t go to the game and my comment was metaphorical.

    #156319
    donnys pageDonnys Page
    Player
    • 580 Posts Started
    • 5,361 Total Posts

    I for one have such a lot of gratitude for Dave Whelan and the journey we have been on but at the moment the journey seems to be going back to the lower leagues.
    There are the cynical amongst us who will think Dave has had other reasons than football too, like raising his own personal and business profile and having this profile shown to the world along the way. Who can blame him, the two have gone together. It could have cost a fortune to raise the business profile so much with stadium and shirt sponsorship alone. A huge chunk of money invested. Remember for all the money that he has put in Latics, Dave still owns millions in assets with the stadium and land etc and still the company name is flashed on TV every week.
    I just think it is a shame after taking us up there to be on the slide which could have been prevented with a fraction of investment again rather than perennial fire sales. Someone somewhere should be accountable for this ridiculous and downward spiraling of Latics and let us hope Mr Whelan can find them, stop them and do something about this slide. I hope he is patient because it is looking like he will have to start this process from league 1 and without a parachute payment which will need the right personnel and investment from the off. It will also require the ruthless side of his business life with a full clear out of most players, the chairman and board, the manager, all the coaching staff, all the hanger ons. Let the upward journey begin again Dave.

    #156322
    Zeb2Zeb2
    Player
    • 0 Posts Started
    • 273 Total Posts

    Sorry Athletico, but whilst there are certainly a few truths in your post, I refuse to believe that Burton, Bristol and Blackburn have had better squads than us over the course of the season so far and all of them are making a far better fist of staying up than us. That is down to team management.
    I thought Caldwell to be over cautious (though I would certainly have given him longer) but he looks gung ho compared to this tedious nonentity.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 42 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Forums Cockney Latic Main Forum In Defence of Joyce