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…he also got us challenging for Europe & I believe he’d have got us to the spot that Fulham were able to get that year if he’d been allowed to keep his team together.
My take on that is:
Clubs receive approximately £500k for qualification into the Europa Cup plus bonuses per game, but on the other hand, their spend on chartering aircraft and general logistics for away group games takes a huge chunk of that. When you then add staffing costs, stewarding, police, players’ bonuses, etc etc, your prize money is suddenly not a great deal at all, and you are relying on supporters coming through the turnstiles and willing to splash some cash to make it more attractive – something we’re not overly blessed with at Wigan (I mean the paying bit, not the attractive bit).
On top of the money side of things, you’ve then got your small squad playing at least six extra midweek games per season, when ideally they should be resting and concentrating on their league form.
Perhaps it was a case of Mr Whelan et al weighing up the pros and cons and thinking ‘Is it really worth getting into Europe, and should we start cutting our wage bill now and perhaps aspire for a top half finish?’
As much as European football is exciting, it’s also drain on resources – especially for a small, commercially unfashionable club like Wigan.
Just a thought like…please feel free to discuss.[/quote]
I find it hard to disagree with that although I’m not sure why you quoted that bit of what i said as that is only me saying that I believe Bruce could have got that team into Europe – not whether I thought that was a good or bad thing. maybe you were relating to a previous post where I said I didn’t agree with Whelan’s timing when it came to breaking up that squad & I’ll be honest & I say I’d never really thought of it in those terms before. being in the Europa league has affected some clubs more than others in both a good or bad way
Regardless of that though it’s not really relevant to whether Steve Bruce is to blame for Bobby’s lack of funds – unless he’s being blamed for doing too well!! as i was a bobby knocker then converted
now totally gutted at recent events developing my main concern is IF bob goes then how many players will join him at liverpool
was going to get a season ticket but ill now wait and see what developsLet me throw my pennys worth in on the Bruce V Whelan.
Fair play Whelan sets the budgets for the manager i.e cuts or increases expenditure.
But he does this because he has to not out of choice!
The same cannot be said for Bruce while he used that budget to sign the likes of Krappo , De Riddled, Won Chee No & Kingston Town while also having the advantage of seeing these mongs in action previously (maybe a little harsh on the Korean).
It has been for the past 3 seasons Martinez’s aim to get the likes of this crap off the books with their mega wages including a certain keeper who cant sit on a bench without getting fecking injured!
How is that Whelan’s fault? If the managers had of used the funds they had been given wisely we would of been in a better situation on their departure without the need to count our copper jar!
…he also got us challenging for Europe & I believe he’d have got us to the spot that Fulham were able to get that year if he’d been allowed to keep his team together.
My take on that is:
Clubs receive approximately £500k for qualification into the Europa Cup plus bonuses per game, but on the other hand, their spend on chartering aircraft and general logistics for away group games takes a huge chunk of that. When you then add staffing costs, stewarding, police, players’ bonuses, etc etc, your prize money is suddenly not a great deal at all, and you are relying on supporters coming through the turnstiles and willing to splash some cash to make it more attractive – something we’re not overly blessed with at Wigan (I mean the paying bit, not the attractive bit).
On top of the money side of things, you’ve then got your small squad playing at least six extra midweek games per season, when ideally they should be resting and concentrating on their league form.
Perhaps it was a case of Mr Whelan et al weighing up the pros and cons and thinking ‘Is it really worth getting into Europe, and should we start cutting our wage bill now and perhaps aspire for a top half finish?’
As much as European football is exciting, it’s also drain on resources – especially for a small, commercially unfashionable club like Wigan.
Just a thought like…please feel free to discuss.[/quote]
I find it hard to disagree with that although I’m not sure why you quoted that bit of what i said as that is only me saying that I believe Bruce could have got that team into Europe – not whether I thought that was a good or bad thing. maybe you were relating to a previous post where I said I didn’t agree with Whelan’s timing when it came to breaking up that squad & I’ll be honest & I say I’d never really thought of it in those terms before. being in the Europa league has affected some clubs more than others in both a good or bad way
Regardless of that though it’s not really relevant to whether Steve Bruce is to blame for Bobby’s lack of funds – unless he’s being blamed for doing too well!! :unsure:[/quote]It’s nothing to do with your discussion with Griff.
I only quoted you because you mentioned Europe and I was going to throw my pinch of pepper into the pot anyway and thought it added a bit of relevance to my post if I put it on this thread.
Oh yeah before I got sidetracked by Ye Olde Bent nose debate I came on to make a relevant point to the topic at hand!
I know it has not worked for us previously but would it be worth giving Jones the nod should Martinez depart for pastures new?
On the back of a good season surely if he maintains the same principals we would be okay?…
Let me throw my pennys worth in on the Bruce V Whelan.Fair play Whelan sets the budgets for the manager i.e cuts or increases expenditure.
But he does this because he has to not out of choice!
The same cannot be said for Bruce while he used that budget to sign the likes of Krappo , De Riddled, Won Chee No & Kingston Town while also having the advantage of seeing these mongs in action previously (maybe a little harsh on the Korean).
It has been for the past 3 seasons Martinez’s aim to get the likes of this crap off the books with their mega wages including a certain keeper who cant sit on a bench without getting fecking injured!
How is that Whelan’s fault? If the managers had of used the funds they had been given wisely we would of been in a better situation on their departure without the need to count our copper jar!
Undoutedly Bruce signed some whoppers but then again (as pointed out by the lightside at times in defence of Bobby), so does every manager – within his budget, Bobby has brought in Scotland, Boselli, Moreno, Thomas, Stojkovic, Sammon (I think the lad has some potential but I know he aint everybody’s cup of tea), that god awful defender who came with Diame, Lopez & that is just off the top of my head.
Admittedly not all are at the cost level of Bruce’s signings but if Bobby had used the funds he’s been given wisely then we’d be in a better position on their departure without the need to count our copper jar.
Also, when saying that Bruce should have spent his money wisely, even with the duffers you mentioned he had Latics challenging for Europe & I’ve no doubt would have got the club to its highest ever league finish. Again operating within the budget given to him
I don’t understand your comment that Whelan sets a budget coz “he has to & not out of choice” – every club operates on a budget from United, Chelsea & City to Barnet & Northampton. No club (not even those backed by oil billionaires) can spend an endless amount of cash no matter what it might look like. Just some clubs budgets are bigger than others. bruce operated under the budget given to him by Whelan & then that budget was altered downwards as Whelan had every right to do. If Bobby had been manager back in bruce’s reign then he would have spent just as much (to a varying degree of success no doubt), he spends less now because he has less to spend & that aint the fault of previous managers.
You also mention a keeper who can’t sit on a bench without getting injured. Maybe, but 1) he wasn’t signed by Bruce, 2) that keepers appearance record under Bruce was superb because Bruce was able to manage his training schedule & 3) that keepers performances under Steve Bruce were superb too – it was only under Bobby that both his performances & injury record sufferedOh yeah before I got sidetracked by Ye Olde Bent nose debate I came on to make a relevant point to the topic at hand!I know it has not worked for us previously but would it be worth giving Jones the nod should Martinez depart for pastures new?
On the back of a good season surely if he maintains the same principals we would be okay?…
Would Jones not go with him?
Here are five names to add to the debate.
Paolo Di Canio
Gus Poyet
Nick Barmby
Stuart McCall (Motherwell)
Peter Houston (Dundee Utd)Di Canio certainly knows how to play football, and Poyet has done brilliantly at Brighton.
Barmby is out of work but was doing a good job at Hull with no money to spend.
The two SPL manager have done well on limited budgets and work well with young players.
Don’t know if any of them would be any good, would be interested in a move to Wigan, or even if there’s going to be a managerial position available at Wigan – but I thought I’d throw some names into the ring other than the usual Holloway, Curbishley, Bruce, Jewell etc.
Oh yeah before I got sidetracked by Ye Olde Bent nose debate I came on to make a relevant point to the topic at hand!
I know it has not worked for us previously but would it be worth giving Jones the nod should Martinez depart for pastures new?
On the back of a good season surely if he maintains the same principals we would be okay?…
Would Jones not go with him?
Here are five names to add to the debate.
Paolo Di Canio
Gus Poyet
Nick Barmby
Stuart McCall (Motherwell)
Peter Houston (Dundee Utd)Di Canio certainly knows how to play football, and Poyet has done brilliantly at Brighton.
Barmby is out of work but was doing a good job at Hull with no money to spend.
The two SPL manager have done well on limited budgets and work well with young players.
Don’t know if any of them would be any good, would be interested in a move to Wigan, or even if there’s going to be a managerial position available at Wigan – but I thought I’d throw some names into the ring other than the usual Holloway, Curbishley, Bruce, Jewell etc.[/quote]
I’m not sure Jones would go with him & its one of the only reasons I could see Bobby turning down the job. From what i can gather the owners are quite keen to bring their own people in as director of football (& we saw what happened to the one Bobby didn’t bring in himself at Latics) & a few other vital posts. They’ve also turned down Steve Clarkes resignation & I assume they want him as the new blokes assistant. It seems to be a case of we want X as manager but he will work with what we give him.
To discuss the others, haven’t McCall & Houston flopped in England previously. I work with a Hull fan who says not many are sad to see him go
Gus Poyet is an interesting one as he was doing well at Leeds too but I wouldn’t attend Latics out of principle if that self-confessed fascist & fascist saluting moron Di canio was ever to darken our doors with his presence – maybe that’s a point in his favour!!! ;)Let me throw my pennys worth in on the Bruce V Whelan.
Fair play Whelan sets the budgets for the manager i.e cuts or increases expenditure.
But he does this because he has to not out of choice!
The same cannot be said for Bruce while he used that budget to sign the likes of Krappo , De Riddled, Won Chee No & Kingston Town while also having the advantage of seeing these mongs in action previously (maybe a little harsh on the Korean).
It has been for the past 3 seasons Martinez’s aim to get the likes of this crap off the books with their mega wages including a certain keeper who cant sit on a bench without getting fecking injured!
How is that Whelan’s fault? If the managers had of used the funds they had been given wisely we would of been in a better situation on their departure without the need to count our copper jar!
Undoutedly Bruce signed some whoppers but then again (as pointed out by the lightside at times in defence of Bobby), so does every manager – within his budget, Bobby has brought in Scotland, Boselli, Moreno, Thomas, Stojkovic, Sammon (I think the lad has some potential but I know he aint everybody’s cup of tea), that god awful defender who came with Diame, Lopez & that is just off the top of my head.
Admittedly not all are at the cost level of Bruce’s signings but if Bobby had used the funds he’s been given wisely then we’d be in a better position on their departure without the need to count our copper jar.
Also, when saying that Bruce should have spent his money wisely, even with the duffers you mentioned he had Latics challenging for Europe & I’ve no doubt would have got the club to its highest ever league finish. Again operating within the budget given to him
I don’t understand your comment that Whelan sets a budget coz “he has to & not out of choice” – every club operates on a budget from United, Chelsea & City to Barnet & Northampton. No club (not even those backed by oil billionaires) can spend an endless amount of cash no matter what it might look like. Just some clubs budgets are bigger than others. bruce operated under the budget given to him by Whelan & then that budget was altered downwards as Whelan had every right to do. If Bobby had been manager back in bruce’s reign then he would have spent just as much (to a varying degree of success no doubt), he spends less now because he has less to spend & that aint the fault of previous managers.
You also mention a keeper who can’t sit on a bench without getting injured. Maybe, but 1) he wasn’t signed by Bruce, 2) that keepers appearance record under Bruce was superb because Bruce was able to manage his training schedule & 3) that keepers performances under Steve Bruce were superb too – it was only under Bobby that both his performances & injury record suffered[/quote]Moreno and Stojkovic were loans so nothing lost.
And Hendry Thomas was technically Steve Bruce’s signing he was refused a work permit the first time around because he chose to play in the olympics instead of the Honduras pro national team if memory serves me correctly but the deal was pushed through anyway probably because he was recognised as the best honduras player out of him palacios and figs at the time and we wouldnt want to do a birmingham e.g. letting palacios go!! think he was Honduras captain too at the time.
So with Lopez and Sammon still in with a chance of coming good it does not leave you with many poor Martinez signings to back up your argument…
Nothing lost of Moreno & Stojkovic??? So they played for free did they?? At the end of the day both were brought in with a view to a permanent signing & both were garbage so still “bad signings”
Lopez & Sammon have both been with Latics virtually as long as De Ridder & Kapo were before Bobby tried to offload them so you can’t write 2 of those off because it fits your argument & say that 2 others may still come good coz it does likewise. Going by that logic De Ridder & Kapo may well have come good too if they’d been given long enough. The fact of the matter is that neither have looked good enough as yet.
So thanks but I’ll keep Lopez & Sammon in there along with Moreno & Stojkovic. Stick Van Aanholt in there too. Ronnie Stam (the bloke who signed him won’t play him unless he’s desparate), Jason Scotland, Steve Gohouri, Antonio Amaya, Scott Sinclair, Jordi Gomez (produced it in flashes but not consistantly, Mauro Boselli
Now don’t get me wrong he’s signed some bloody good uns too & he’s signed some players who had shaky starts & have come good but you highlight bruces bad signings & ignore his good uns whilst denying Bobby makes many bad signings. Just as Bruce wasted Latics budget on bad players, so has Martinez – denying that to be frank renders your argument impotentNothing lost of Moreno & Stojkovic??? So they played for free did they?? At the end of the day both were brought in with a view to a permanent signing & both were garbage so still “bad signings”
Lopez & Sammon have both been with Latics virtually as long as De Ridder & Kapo were before Bobby tried to offload them so you can’t write 2 of those off because it fits your argument & say that 2 others may still come good coz it does likewise. Going by that logic De Ridder & Kapo may well have come good too if they’d been given long enough. The fact of the matter is that neither have looked good enough as yet.
So thanks but I’ll keep Lopez & Sammon in there along with Moreno & Stojkovic. Stick Van Aanholt in there too. Ronnie Stam (the bloke who signed him won’t play him unless he’s desparate), Jason Scotland, Steve Gohouri, Antonio Amaya, Scott Sinclair, Jordi Gomez (produced it in flashes but not consistantly, Mauro Boselli
Now don’t get me wrong he’s signed some bloody good uns too & he’s signed some players who had shaky starts & have come good but you highlight bruces bad signings & ignore his good uns whilst denying Bobby makes many bad signings. Just as Bruce wasted Latics budget on bad players, so has Martinez – denying that to be frank renders your argument impotentNow you’re going onto a different argument all together.
Dont get me wrong I am happy to argue til I am blue in the face with anyone that tells me Bruce has not on many occasions proved himself to be a rubbish manager but the original point made we got on to was use of the budget available and the effect it has on the next manager.
I have already demonstrated Bruce spent alot more than Martinez did in a previous topic without even touching on wages of which I am confident there would be an astromonical difference between the two.
Bruce left = Martinez had to go about removing crap players on big wages with long contracts.
Martinez leaves (hopefully not) = the next manager has the most competitve premiership squad we have ever had on half the budget with the club breaking possibly announcing a profit.
Give me a manager who puts the long term sustainability of his employers over a manger who is looking to get quick success by rash signings any day of the week!
Lopez made a mistake against Wolves but looks fast and hungry and Sammon has not been given a fair crack of the whip yet in the way di santo has!
Im sure Filmoss was asking why Sammon was not playing ahead of Di Santo last season and now he is saying he is not good enough to be on the bench as fickle as it is im swaying off subject again!!!!
Bruce looked after Bruce’s team.
Martinez puts the clubs best interests into perspective and still manages to acheive relative success!!!!!!It is blatently obvious that Martinez is better value for money as again previously demonstrated.
Sammon (I think the lad has some potential but I know he aint everybody’s cup of tea)And I had you down as one of the more sensible posters on here…..! :silly:
Steve Bruce with Eric Black as his assistant would be my choice
There’s about as much chance of that happening as I have of going to the moon a week next Tuesday.
Let’s keep it realistic, eh.[/quote]
Black is at the chicken ranch so he wont be back but spud yead well never say never he is still in close contact with dw they play golf reguarly and he his the godfather to the fish n chip mon, so if i was you contact NASA and see how much it will cost ;)[/quote]
NASA have stopped putting people into space so I reckon I won’t be going to the moon anytime soon.
goodpostSteve Bruce with Eric Black as his assistant would be my choice
There’s about as much chance of that happening as I have of going to the moon a week next Tuesday.
Let’s keep it realistic, eh.[/quote]
Black is at the chicken ranch so he wont be back but spud yead well never say never he is still in close contact with dw they play golf reguarly and he his the godfather to the fish n chip mon, so if i was you contact NASA and see how much it will cost ;)[/quote]
NASA have stopped putting people into space so I reckon I won’t be going to the moon anytime soon.
goodpost[/quote]well if you had you would have been the first !! I am still laughing at the idea of Jones being our manager !!! Classic !! ha ha ha
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