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Tyldesley
Can’t have me agreeing with you twice in the same month, so….
‘Bobby has made alot of mistakes during his time at Latics – from some of his signings, to some of his tactics, to some of his team selections, to some of his substitutions (& the timing of them), playing players out of position, imposing a system on players who didn;t have teh skill set for it. No problem there as such as everybody makes mistakes’Obviously that’s an opinion – especially the bit about team selection and substitutions. I’m sure he has made a lot of mistakes but I’m not qualified or in a position to say what they are.
Who knows why he made some of the decision he has made, and who knows what would have happened if he had played X instead Y? He works on a daily basis with these players, and some of the players who were woeful earlier in the season now look like world-beaters. I remember him saying in the forum thingy I attended that Ben Watson hit virtually every corner he took in training right on the target, then when it came to a game it all went pear shaped. He obviously sees things in training that we don’t and has faith in the players he has stood by, and to say X should have played instead of Y is easy after the event.
‘He also then realised an essential part of the new system was an out & out left wing back & he got one’
I’m positive it wasn’t such a road to Damascus moment. Martinez has stated that he has been tracking Beausejour since the last World Cup and there were even strong rumours all over the Birmingham forums about him signing for us last August after they were relegated.
‘I don’t believe that this was what Bobby was always looking towards in terms of the system otherwise it could & would have been introduced long before but I think Bobby & his team (who also took alot of stick off many) realised in the Autumn that what they had been trying wasn’t working & had the nouse to devise one that would suit the squad’
He probably wasn’t looking for this system, but it was introduced with a modicum of success just before Christmas then seemingly abandoned temporarily for whatever reason after the Man Utd game. He probably didn’t introduce it and stick with it earlier in the season, or maybe even last year, as he had far too many round holes and square pegs.
In my opinion, four players getting into the team have made a huge difference – Beausejour Boyce, McArthur and Maloney.
You don’t need to be qualified in anything to see/know what some of the mistakes were. As I said, every manager makes them & I’d have expected him to make them in the past & I’d expect him to make them in the future. My problem, & of course its only an opinion as virtually anything is, was that he seemed to continue making the same ones. He had his reasons & thinking behind them, & yes its all well & good being wise after the event, but when they’ve had the results that they sometimes had then they were quite clearly mistakes. Not being argumentative for the sake of it but even Bobby would probably admit mistakes have been made & that was my point – well & learning from them.
On Beausejour – I didn’t mean it to sound like a “Damascus” moment & I’ve no doubt he was on the radar for some time but I think the boat was pushed out a bit more for it this time coz he knew he would suit the new system. Bloody hell I get criticised when I criticise him & criticised when i praise him!!! ;)
On the system, he was obviously looking for something different but which fitted in with his ethos for some time & so should any manager worth his salt after 9 defeats on the bounce. Not sure I’d agree that he didn’t introduce it earlier in the season or the season before coz of teh square pegs/round holes thing – when he introduced it in december Bobby had no-one in the squad that wasn’t there at the end of August. Likewise last season he had his keeper, back 3, the initial 2 wing backs he started the system with & one who is playing there now, McCarthy was here, McArthur wasn’t ready but Diame & Watson could both have played that role(whether as effectively I don’t know), Di Santo was here, and whilst Moses probably wasn’t ready & Maloney not here he had both N’Zogbia & Gomez. All in all i think last season’s squad could have played it certainly mroe effectively than they played the old system for most fo the season
On your last sentence I think I’ve said in this thread (but maybe not) & definitely in one the other week stage one was the change in formation, stage 2 was introducing McArthur, very closely followed by stage 3 (signing Beausejour) & then the final piece in the jigsaw was introducing Maloney. Personally I don’t think Boyce coming back has had much to do with it – i don’t think he’s done anything wrong but I think Stam would be far better suited to that role. All things or players introduced or signed by the man himself so as i said he deserves all the praise he gets
It’s an inter-changable formation but one that operates by & large with only 1 striker
When pushing forward there are 2 more advanced midfielders whose job it is to get forward in support of that striker but who, when possession is lost are expected to get back behind the ball & leave said striker up front on his own :PUnfortunately I was coughing & spluttering my way up & down the line (not been well!!) at Alsager Town v Ashton Athletic on Saturday so wasn’t at the game to be able to agree with your statement from the Newcastle game ;)
PS – Alsager won 3-2 & Ashton had a man sent off
I was born about a month after Latics had sealed the Northern Premier League title (1975)
Looking at the table for that year its been turbulent period of ups & downs for some of the other clubs since:
Fleetwood
Runcorn
Scarborough
Northwich Vics
Morecambe
South Liverpool
MacclesfieldBobby has made alot of mistakes during his time at Latics – from some of his signings, to some of his tactics, to some of his team selections, to some of his substitutions (& the timing of them), playing players out of position, imposing a system on players who didn;t have teh skill set for it. No problem there as such as everybody makes mistakes
I for one have stated from a relatively early stage (I think the Spurs defeat) that I didn’t think he was up to the job & that he seemed unable to learn from his mistakes & that the same ones seemed to be made over & over & over again – I once likened him to that Homer Simpson sketch you can see on Channel 4 where he keeps trying to grab the 4 pack of beer that is on the leccy cables.
Last season he seemed to be starting to go down the right track only for N’Zogbia to go & this season seem to be a step backwardsI did however also say that I would like nothing more than for Bobby to prove me wrong and whilst there are still 2 games of this season to go & the start of next season to come, he seems to be doing exactly that.
Bobby has to take great credit for switching to the 3 at the back system because it suits those players down to the ground – Figueroa looks reborn, Alacaraz finally looks like he knows what he gets paid for doing & Caldwell to be frank looks like a different player. He also then realised an essential part of the new system was an out & out left wing back & he got one
After losing Diame to the ACN & struggling in January he gave McArthur a chance as a sub & had the nouse to notice the improvement he could bring & the guts to keep him in the side. Likewise Maloney got his chance away at Norwich & Bobby was able to see the extra “oomph” this gave the team going forward & dropped Gomez.
Unlike last season where there was not noticeable change other than the players form improving this season has turned around in 3 stages where I think, as manager, Bobby must take complete & total credit for.
I don’t believe that this was what Bobby was always looking towards in terms of the system otherwise it could & would have been introduced long before but I think Bobby & his team (who also took alot of stick off many) realised in the Autumn that what they had been trying wasn’t working & had the nouse to devise one that would suit the squadFull marks to em coz I’ve never seen a Latics side (in any division) to look as tactically astute (when they need to attack they attack as a team, when they need to defend they defend as a team) as this one does now – long may it continue
Why is it that whenever i meet supporters of this ‘sport’they are always boring bast@ds!I always have that issue with people who ride motorbikes. They never seem to just own a motorbike as a mode of transport like I have my car or bike, but they seem totally obssessed by the bloody thing & start rambling on to you about em without me even asking.
Now I may ramble on about football every now & then but I choose who to & certainly don’t start up conversations about Latics defeat at Fulham with someone I know who isn’t the least bit interested!!As for F1 – as I kid I liked it (during the Mansell era) & when I was older & had my own pad it was great to put on the telly on a Sunday afternoon whilst fighting a hangover in order to get me off to sleep. haven’t watched it for about 7 years
A mate of mine once went to Silverstone for the British Grand Prix & said it was cr*p. No idea who was in what position & he couldn’t hear a bloody thing over the noise of the enginesUntil the road around the stadium was sorted out the east stand was not used. Then when it opened it was used for away fans and the north stand was the family stand. When we were promoted to premier league I was told that the family stand could not be adjacent the away supporters but we also probably thought we would fill the ground (which we did in season 1). It was then that the away stand moved to the north and the family stand to the south.
When the ground first opened the ‘family section'(there was no dedicated family stand then) was at the south end of the West Stand, away fans were housed in the North stand from the very begining,and the East remained closed because there was no need to use it, the east stand was used to house the away following only once in 2nd division days, vs preston for a top of table clash, although burnley sold out the north stand for a visit but were not allocated seats numbers so many claimed not to have seats and were seated in ES1 – this led to every other burnley fan in the north stand deciding they wanted to sit in the east and invading it.
The north stand became the family stand on our promotion to the 1st division(championship) and the away supporters given the east stand, until our promotion to the premier league – the East stand housed away supporters for only the 2 championship seasons, apart from then the north stand has always housed away fans.
Edit
On second thoughts – millwall were also given the east stand for the 2nd division playoff second leg.[/quote]
From my memory the East Stand was initially shut on the insistance of the council until all the road works were completed.
They then allowed the rugby league club to start using it whilst still refusing permission for Latics to start using it (not that there would have been any need for it at the time, but still).
As for when it became the away stand, after the “Stoke pitch invasion” game they moved the away fans up into the top corner of the north stand & had it all sectioned off (seem to remember about 100 Wrexham fans being shoved up there for our last home game of the season). The season after that, they were put into the East Stand so that would make it the 2000/2001 season wouldnt it? It certainly wasn;t just the championship days coz, amongst other things, I remember 3 of my mates going in there for the game against Barnsley when Latics were given the Div 2/League one trophy in the game Tony Dinning scored to give us a 1-0 winGo on I’m bored enough to have a stab at that:
You’re 3rd in the form guide and have taken the scalps of the 2 of the top 3 and decent midtable outfits like Stoke and Liverpool. Is it simply the shadow of relegation that’s spurred on your players, or is there another factor?
I think there’s bit of the “relegation fear factor” there but truth is that it’s been coming for a while. The 1st seeds weer sewn back in December when the manager switched to this new formation. The second stage came at the end of February when Jean Beausejour was signed & it gave the team balance down the left hand side (we’d previously been playing a central midfielder at wing back) + bringing McArthur in to midfield & then the final piece in the jigsaw came when Shaun Maloney was brought in to replace Gomez & it gave the team a bit more graft without the ball & speed with it. Its not just the games since the back end of March where the improvement has come. Our points tally per game since 1st feb evened out over a 38 game season would have us on 60pts
A lot of fans appreciate the style that Wigan play and are worried about who will be able to provide the best pies in the premier league next season?
You must have some shite pies up your way coz the ones in at latics give me heartburn
Positives are hard to come by in a season that may end in relegation, but surely the performances of Moses and McCarthy have provided a little sunshine? Just how good are they?
Prior to this run since February, McCarthy hadn’t played well for over 12 months & you wouldn’t have had much argument from Latics fans if he’d been dropped. Its helped him having his ex Hamilton team mate James McArthur alongside him. He’s alright but he’s not as special as his media reputation would suggest he is
Victor Moses has the potential to be a great player but he is along way from that at present. His final decision making can be atrocious. Shoots when he should pass & then the shot is crap or his final ball is poor which ruins some of the great approach play he is capable of. Way too early for him to leave Latics coz if he continued to make the regular mistakes he makes at Latics at another club I don’t think he’d find their fans as forgiving & he’d spend alot of time on the bench or out of the squad. To improve further he needs to play every week & he’ll get that at Wigan – his improvement this season (which is the first where he’s been a regular) is evidence of thatIf Wigan go down, which players do you expect to leave the club?
Mohamed Diame, Hugo Rodallega, Victor Moses & James McCarthy although I think 2 or 3 of those will be going this summer any way (the first 2 are out of contract & Rodallega has said he will be leaving this summer)
Has Martinez done a good job on the whole and do you see him being snapped up/jumping ship if you go down?
Possibly the most devisive question you could have asked. He’s not without his critics (me included). In his defence he has had to operate under a vastly reduced budget to any of his (top flight) predecessors & he is trying to restructure (with some success if you ask some) the club from top to bottom. Against him at times over the last 3 seasons the 1st team have played some awful stuff & received some absolute kickings (9-1 to Spurs, 8-0 to Chelsea), he’s tried to shoehorn players into a formation, positions & tactics to which they clearly weren’t suited. He’s seemed unable or extremely slow to learn from his mistakes & some of his team selections & substitutions have been baffling. Some of his signings have been dire but in his defence haven’t all managers
He does now however seemed to have hit on a way of playing that suits everyone at the club & if he keeps us up he has achieved his brief from the chairman
As to whether he would jump ship if we got relegated – I don’t think so. He does have a genuine love for the club & I think he’d see it as his duty to get us back up. Will he be snapped up? Eventually but to go this summer I think it would take a special club & I don’t think any of those will want himThe relationship between Roberto Martinez and your owner seems a genuine friendship, Should Whelan have been more cut-throat and brought in another man earlier on?
If you’d asked me 6 weeks ago I would have said yes. At the moment I’d say I don’t know. Ask me again at 6pm on May 13th!!!
How much of this season is down to the management team and how much is it due to the players?
I think it’s down to the management in having found a system & tactics that suit the squad. This has bred a confidence & that can be seen in the way they’re playing
What’s a realistic aim for Wigan next season? Where do Wigan need to strengthen to achieve this?
The ultimate aim is always going to be staying up. If we manage that this season then I think a realistic aim next season could be a nice safe season. To achieve that I think Bobby would need to bring in a striker who is ideally suited to playing the lone striker role coz at the moment, none of them are
Who has been your player of the season?
It’s s toss up between Al Habsi & Gary Caldwell
What has been your biggest frustration this season (can be performances, players, opposition, media, fans, anything)?
A lack of a finishing touch has cost Latics points in so many games. Off the top of my head I can think of at least 10 games where missed opportunities have cost us in games in which the team dominated
Which managers have impressed you this season?
As much as I dislike him as a person (in how he comes across in the media) & this goes back to his days at Reading it would be hard to argue that Pardew’s achievements this season (regardless of where Newcastle finish) haven’t been the most impressive
Which Premier League Players have stood out?
Van Persie
Which are your danger men that we should be looking out for?
I wouldn’t worry about a danger man as such. It’s very much a team thing at Latics at the moment. Moses & Maloney’s pace can cause havoc though
Which Newcastle players are you worried about?
Your front 2
Which have been your 2 stand out games this season? (One involving Wigan, one without)
For Latics, the 2-1 win at Arsenal. Don’t think I’ve ever seen a more complete performance & deserved result as that since Latics got promoted
For somebody else, Chelsea’s last nightWhich away fans have impressed you the most/least?
Can’t say I ever go to a game & think away fans have impressed me (possibly once against Millwall) but as for the least it would have to be Blackburn – I know they have their problems but it was as if they couldn’t wait for their team to go behind for the protests to start, then they’d equalise & be happy as Larry, then go behind again & the banners were unfurled once more. Bearing in mind that it was 3-3 this up & down support was really evident
What do you predict the score to be?
2 (or 3) – 1 to Newcastle
“Still having problems with my knee”??????? – sounds like a reet bloody crock ;)
Good to see Latics medicals are as stringent as ever!!To be fair to Pardew he actually paid us a massive compliment in ensuring that his West Ham team went all out to win that game even though their play off position was already assured as I seem to recall him saying that he wanted to win it as a Latics win that day would have meant that West Ham would have played Latics in the play offs & he wanted to avoid that i.e. he preferred to play one of the other teams as he felt West Ham had a better chance against them
Whether you believed him or not is a different matterIt was also kind of ironic then that the very club his team’s victory allowed into the play offs (Crystal Palace) then went & beat them!!!
Not that I like Pardew coz I don’t – I felt his Reading team in the Rioch/Greenall/Bruce era were a vile lot to play against both on the pitch & off it (he even instructed their ball boys not to go & fetch the ball for the opposition when it went out of play for a throw in/goal kick/corner to them).
really haven’t seen much of Newcastle this season but he deserve plaudits for keeping them up there all season when many thought they’d ultimately fall away & in those 2 up front they have strikers who know where the back of the net isYep – for some reason my parents decided to send me on an 8 mile round trip by bus to Leigh every day rather than 5 minutes walk up the road to Freddies
Tyldesley, we have reached one of those rare moments where we seem to be in agreement on most things.But, to me though, it would still be a major achievement if one day we have Wigan lads playing for Wigan Athletic in the Premier League.
After coming through the rugby league biased Wigan schooling system – where football was seen largely a second class pursuit, the borough producing Premier League footballers would signal a coming of age, and prove that Wigan really was a football town.
Agreeing?? Not sure we can have that!!!
Maybe I don’t see the Wiganers in the team as a massive achievement coz unlike you I didn’t go to school in Wigan
At primary school “Up Bongs” I never even saw a rugby league ball & the only way I knew it existed was coz of the challenge cup final on the telly.
Even at secondary school in Leigh once the rugby league obsessed head of PE had left after my 1st year you only really played rugby league if you wanted to be in the school team – which were “national” champions for my last 2 yearsDon’t get me wrong I know the club needs a better youth system than its had since Whelan arrived for the long term future of the club but the borough has long produced professional football players & still does, the trick is getting em to sign for Latics. Due to the nature of football & its worldwide appeal we are never going to be able to have a similar situation as in rugby league where so many of the top English players come from a handful of towns like Wigan
1) I did say some of it was unjustified. Off the top of my head the reaction to the lack of signings in January – where he was accused of not trying to sign anybody when it was clear that he’d made numerous efforts to sign numerous players. I’m sure there are many other examples but even as a darksider I don’t think that criticism was well placed
2) The key word was “seemingly” ;) Many, including myself were aware of what Martinez was trying to bring about on the pitch. I remember our particular debate earlier this year as to whether having some locals in the youth & development squad was a sign of success. My reference to blind faith is that Bobby has said on numerous occasions that it is imperative to the future plans for the club for them to remain in this division. The blind faith comes in relation to the first team when he’s consistantly tried to jam square pegs in round holes, made shocking team selections & subsitutions, not learning from mistakes etc.. personally i couldn’t see based on that evidence that he could keep us up nor if he took us down that he would have the ability to bring us back up. It looked like blind faith coz he was doing more wrong than right
3) Until it continues into next season then it is a surge. Whether its been achieved by trying to play the same way or not. The players could have had a collective rocket up their backsides when relegation looked likely & all but a handful of em realised that they’d be stuck on vastly reduced contracts. IMO the improved performances & results have to be maintained for it not to be a surge as they’ve proved in the past in small patches that they are more than capable of producing good results
4) It certainly does contain many of the same players. Some of them who were getting slated seem to now be playing in a system to which they are far more suited (Caldwell). Others have been brought in from the cold like Maloney & McArthur (not that I’m saying they should have been brought in earlier as as Bobby has said maybe they weren’t ready). I also think the signing of Beausejour has been inspired & gives us real balance down both sides for the first time in years
5) I’m pretty certain that Bobby hasn;t taken heed of what’s been said on here coz for a start he’s still only playing 1 up front!! ;) But he undoubtedly saw his previous 4-5-1 system wasn’t working & went to 3 at the back. He also then saw that other players were more suited to playing his new system than others eg Malomey instead of Gomez. For someone who feels he didn’t learn from his mistakes in the past he quickly realised what his new system needed to make it work better & again he deserves praise for thatTo be fair to the agent, if you go off what is said in this quote then it is Victor Moses himself who has instructed his agent & latics that he does not want to discuss a new deal
personally i think he’s getting a bit ahead of himself here. He’s improved this season from last & even from Feb/March onwards & I think he’d be better served with another year developing at Latics where he can iron out the faults in his game i.e. his poor final choice of when best to pass or shoot & the quality of that pass/shot when it comes.
If he goes to one of the bigger clubs at present I think he’d either be stuck on their bench for a while or if he went straight into the starting line up he’d soon have the crowd on his back as the big money signing who’s either too greedy or his final ball isn’t good enough. In much the same way that N’Zogbia & Ellington before him have found outBy the same token Standish some of the criticism of Bobby over the last 3 seasons has also been justifiable although i agree that alot of it hasn’t.
He’s made mistakes & alot of em at times in signings, tactics, formations, substiutions, team selections etc.. & as supporters its my personal opinion that we have a right to voice those criticisms as much as he & the team deserve praise for their recent form – I honestly believe though that at any other club in this division, for as much as people spout off on here & other message boards, that Martinez would have been hounded out of the club by the fans & in reality there has been very little by way of match day protesting or similar stuff.Is the, at times (IMO), seemingly blind faith of the lightsiders now being repaid?? Possibly – performances, bar a january blip, have been steadily improving since December but I think its far too early to either start celebrating or for the “I told you so” posts to start to appear from said lightsiders for a couple of reasons:
1) Latics a far from safe yet. An away game at Fulham will be bloody hard as will a home game against a champions league chasing spot Newcastle. Regardless of recent results, if Latics get a point from those 2 games I will be happy leaving us on 35 & facing a Blackburn team away who may look garbage at the moment but who several weeks ago were looking vastly improved the way Latics are now. On top of that QPR have had some decent results recently & Bolton have won 3 of their last 4 so things could still get very tight down there
2) Last season our points per game tally from feb onwards was very impressive & that turn around led many to start believing the club would push on this season & if anything for the first 3-4 months of the season they looked worse than they had done before. is this improvement one of those surges a relegation threatened side has or is it more permanent than that? I hope its the latter & I believe the signs are far more encouraging this time but we’ve been here beforeThat said, in all my time of watching Latics in the top flight I’ve never seen them looking so strong in all departments, playing as much as a team & being tactically astute as they have done over the last 6 weeks or so.
Bobby & the players deserve all the praise coming their way recently & as a Latics fan I hope that we stay up & that this form continues into next season – Incidentally points per game since feb would currently have Latics fighting for a champions league spot next season but I just want somet comfortable with maybe a cup final chucked in.
That’s nto askign for too much is it!!! ;)I don’t think Bobby will go anywhere this summer although if Latics recent improvement continues I think he may be tempted away next summer.
Of the current squad I think Diame (who from rumours I have heard is all but agreed to go to Newcastle or Everton (can’t remember which), Rodallega, Kirkland, Thomas, Stam & Gohouri will be looking to move on. I think the only possible big money departure from Latics could be Moses
