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“it can only be for the good of the club by a person who is totaly 100% Wigan Athletic and wouldn’t want any harm to come of this great club.”
I’m a 100% Wigan Athletic & don’t want any harm to come to this great club & I’d imagine everybody else on here is the same too – doesn’t mean we’d always make the right decisions for the best of teh club if we were in charge so I don’t see what his alleged “passion” for Latics has got to do with it being a good move or not
“We’ve signed two Swansea players, both of which appeared decent additions at the time, the rest is press speculation. Britton is a free transfer and comes on the back of two successful Championship seasons.”
To be honest No1 I don’t know anyone who though that Jason Scotland was a decent addition at the time. Virtually everyone I spoke to about him agreed that there was probably a very good reason why, at the age of 31, he had never come anywhere close to playing top flight English football & that if he’d been good enough he’d have played there before last season.
Gomez was signed off the back of his Spanish scouting regardless of whether that was when he was at Swansea or Wigan. Bobby also stated that there was no doubt in his mind that he had what it took to adapt to top flight English football. 12 months on you have to question that judgement
That’s why alarm bells start ringing when there is an alleged bust up with the general manager over the possible signing of a player who wasn’t even a regular in the Swansea team last season. That he will cost nothing is (IMO) irrelevant if he isn’t good enough“You’ve also ommiited Diame and the two youth teams players on the brink of breaking into the first team from your Spanish list. Amaya is the exception that proves the rule when it comes to the Spanish signings!!”
Diame I did admittedly completely forget about but its one good player. Quite how you can use 2 youth team players that in all probability you have never seen play to justify Bobby’s Spanish scouting network is beyond me“Those in the pro and anti Martinez camps must both welcome this development, the onfield success or failure of Latics will now be down entirely to the manager.”
i don’t welcome it at al. I don’t want Bobby to fail & I don’t want latics to get relegated. My honest opinion is that yesterday’s development make both more likely but I hope I’m wrong“McCarthy, Moses and Diame more than make up for any dissapointment in the above signings”
Hold an a cotton pickin second, how on earth can anybody judge Victor Moses a success or failure based on what we’ve seen of him so far. He may well have been linked with all the top teams under the sun but the fact of the matter is that outside of the Championship only Latics put in a bid for him. He has started 1 match is it since January & beyond that been limted to 10 or 15 minute (or less) sub appearances because our manager did not think that he was ready for regular first team football. Now I regularly question Bobby’s judgement but if even he does not think that Moses was ready up until the end of this season I fail to see how anybody can judge him a successful signing (or for that matter a bad one)“A new broom perhaps, or has Roberto unwittingly picked up a just-about-long-enough length of rope?”
Time will tell Griff – If the behind the scenes bust up has in part been caused by Bobby’s insistance that he signs another Swansea player (Britton) then I fear the worst.
As I do with the “Bobby wants his own men” on the backroom staff quotes, if he choices of Jones & Barrow as coaches are anything to go by
Add to that the rumour that Bobby wants to concentrate on the Spanish market (which has brought us Amaya & Gomez – and almost brought us a £7mill reserve team signing in January) as opposed to the Latin American market (which has brought us Valencia, Palacios, Rodallega, Figueroa & Thomas) & its looking like brown trousers time next season!!!!! ;) Moreno is the exception that proves the rule when it comes to the Latin American signings!!i think as he was Hutchings “marquee signing” (I hate that phrase) that it is entirely possible that he was offered a 5yr deal when he signed in 2007 to try & fight off the competition
“I thought you couldn’t drink when watching a football match, is that law different in Germany ?”
You may well be able to drink at the football in germany as VAT states but it was my understanding from watching England in the past at home & abroad that the sale of all alcohol was banned in any UEFA regulated games.
You certainly couldn’t buy it under the stands the last international I went to at Wembley & after wondering why the copious amount os lager I was drinking in Luxembourg weren’t getting me drunk i was told that it was alcohol free.No doubt however UEFA relax these regulations so that all the corporate hob nobs & rich folk can have a drink or two – its just us common plebs who can’t be trusted with an ale at the football
Why is Bruce’s last 6 months in charge being airbrushed from history?We had a dreadful run of form, which if carried over a season would have seen us relegated.
As for Jewell, didn’t he leave the club after staying up on the last day of the season?
Isn’t it a touch unrealistic to expect any club to relentlessly push forward, sometimes you have to take a step backwards, particularly when there are major management and playing staff changes, the key was to enure that step backwards was not into the Championship.
Steve Bruce had taken a team going down & turned them into one challenging for Europe within a year. With safety all but achieved he had his team sold out from under him when (for the sake of a few months) it should have been kept together until the summer. When this happened he had days to try & make a couple of signings to patch things up
Not only that, but in my opinion the chairman of the club publicly contradicting his manager in selling those players & stating that we were safe & so it was job done & time to build next season’s team had a negative impact both on the outlook of the players (as did Jewell’s insistance on talking about nothing but 40 points even when it was clear we would be staying up from about November onwards).
Having the core of his team taken away did admittedly show up the sparsity his squad & the poor quality of some of his signings but he also had to cope with Cattermole being out for a long stretch & Valencia’s “injury” problems from his first season returningI believe, and there’s no way of proving this either way, that had Bruce stayed instead of leaving (something for which i don’t blame him one bit) we would have finished this season in a higher league position, with more points & with a better goal difference.
yes it is unrealistic to think we can relentlessly push forward each season as due to the type of club we are there is always goign to be some element of rebuilding going on & Bruce would have been faced with the same problems Bobby was but I believe (if Bruce had stayed) that we may have got less points than we did last season but it’d have been better than this one. I also believe that there would have been an improvement throughout the course of the season. I can’t prove it but its what I’d expect in the “transitional period” that this season was always going to be
Under Bobby however we’ve been consistantly poor. We’ve taken heavy batterings at the start of the season & we’ve taken em at the end of the season. The football was tepid & without urgency at the start of the season & it was tepid & without urgency at the end of the season. His insistance on 1 up front didn’t work for the vast majority of games at the start of the season & it still wasn’t working at the end of the season. The team collapsed at the slightest sign of hard work ahead at the start of the season & it was still doing it at the end of the season.
And that’s my point there has been (IMO) very little progress & the manager doesn’t seem to be learning from his mistakesjayt – to be fair I acknowledged that you had a fair point & if I’m honest its one to which any argument against (including mine) looks a little flimsy
My point was that, without checking through their records, Aston Villa & stoke didn’t concede 70 goals throughout the course of their seasons, nor had they lost previously by a margin of 8 goals, nor had they conceded 4 goals without reply to a team (Pompey) who managed well below a goal a game in their 37 other league games, nor had a less than free scoring Bolton side put 4 past them, nor had they collapsed in similar fashion throughout the season. All of which Latics had.
That’s my reason for saying Sunday was symptematic of our season as opposed to Stoke & Villa’s being one off freak occurrences.
As Andy Gray said during his commentary “to collapse in the manner that they have & to have done so on previous occasions throughout the season to me shows that there is something fundamentally wrong” – I find that statement very, very hard to argue with & the worrying thing is that for all people’s talk of Bobby & the players settling in & being on a learning curve & adapting to a new style of play these results & performances were just as likely to happen at the end of the season as they were at the start.
To me I can’t see any lessons being learntWe’re at opposite ends of the spectrum here & aint gonna change each others minds
That’s a fair point to be honest but I’d argue that they were freak occurrences in their seasons whereas it was symptomatic of ours both in terms of a heavy defeat & the manner of the collapse
I’d also compare the reactions of both Martin O’Neill & Tony Pulis who read the riot act to their squads as opposed to ours talking about it being “Chelsea’s day”, a “good learning curve”, saying he’d told his squad before the game that “they’d won their league” i.e. “job done lads”, saying “the result did not reflect what happened in the game”, talked of Chelsea “not being able to cope with what we were trying to do” & blaming the officials (again)
“It is hard to disagree with most of what you say, though I really cannot ABIDE Alan Pardew”
Like you griff ;) I can’t stand him either. When he was in charge at Reading they were a nasty set of f00kers & the way he had the reading ball boys wiping down the balls for reading throw ins & not even moving to get the ball for Latics ones in that play off 2nd leg really pished me off
BUT I think he’s relatively good at making the best of what he’s got & I don’t mind my teams being a bit nasty. Someone’s pointed out in another thread & some radio commentator I heard during the Hull game the other week made the point that the team seems almost too nice. Whereas other teams will harass the ref if we think decisions are wrong/against us & put pressure on him, Latics just seem to shrug their shoulders & accept it“That said, one thing we have not touched on during this debate though it is something I have mentioned on numerous occasions, is the possibility that some players are not performing because they have no respect for Martinez. They may have the “I know better than you and what have you ever done anyway” mentality” – If I could be @r$ed trawling back through this site (or another one work has filtered out!!) that was one of the major worries I had about Martinez being appointed & it started to manifest itself very quickly if Ian Holloway’s statement after the Carling Cup game had any truth to it.
If true its not completely Bobby’s fault & the players need to have a long hard look at themselves but I also don’t think Bobby has handled the public displays of dissent from within his camp well either – Paul Scharner should have been publicly railroaded on numerous occasions this season for his behaviour & yet each time Bobby has defended what he has done or said. Now I know he made reference to it on the interview he gave you saying his attitude had deteriorated & it was probably best for him to move on AND I can understand if he’s wanted to rollockings in house whilst putting on a united front to the public BUT a) i think it sends out the wrong message to the squad b) if he has done it in house it hasn’t worked coz Scharner continued to do it & c) it makes him look weak“I really like the patient passing type of football that Martinez tries to play” – I don’t. Watching continental & to a certain extent international football can be tedious at times due to this “style”. I much prefer the blood & guts, in your face, high tempo stuff & i don’t wanna see 15 passes knocked about sideways between defence & midfield before the lack of movement forces someone to just lump it forward aimlessly anyway
“I will be fascinated to see who, if anyone, we bring in to try to improve things on the pitch” – So will I & as I’ve said before I don’t think Bobby can risk any more signings who “need to settle in”. They’ve all got to hit the ground running. Reading Whelan’s comments at the back end of this season I don’t share your belief that he sees Martinez here for the long run regardless. I think he’s gonna live or die by who he brings in this summer & if any more “poor quality” players arrive from the likes of Swansea & we’re still scraping round the bottom 3 I think he’ll get the push by October
Here you go Griff:
I never expected Bobby to be the finished article, managerial wise, but I was hoping to see some improvement over the course of the season or that he’s able to learn from his mistakes – I’ve seen neither
Like you Griff I don’t expect us to ever have the ability to attract top players & managers. As such, again like Griff I don’t expect us to be regularly pushing for the top 10 or Europe & whilst I would prefer to see my teams playing total football a manager should be able to cut his cloth accordingly & adapt his style of play & tactics to suit the players & circumstances in which he finds himself. Bobby seems almost pig-headed to be sticking with his way regardless of the results it brings – like some people on here he seems to think coz he got results against 3 big clubs that his system works whilst ignoring the results & performances from the other 30 odd games. Also whilst I like to see football played the “right way” it’s a fact that a team will not lose if it doesn’t concede. For a team like Latics, with Latics resources & ambitions the most important part of the team to get right is the defence & Bobby has been getting it horribly wrong all season – and I’m sorry but Bobby’s argument in his latest website interview that “if you take out all our heaviest defeats the defensive record is quite good” is one of the lamest I have ever heard from a manager.
On a related matter I don’t buy the argument that Bobby has us playing good football. Some of the most turgid stuff I’ve seen us play since we reached the top flight has been this season under Bobby. Its all very well having lots of possession as we did in the first half on Sunday but its of no value at all if that possession consists of lots of sideways passing, no pace, no urgency & no movement & the ease with which teams can scythe through our midfield & defence is at times excruciating to watch
1) – realistically, approximately what league position do you think Wigan as a club should be aiming to finish on a regular basis? Like you Griff I don’t think anywhere between 10th & 16th is too unrealistic. As such you could say Bobby has done that this season but I don’t think its unrealistic to expect us not to be in a relegation scrap all year or obtain our lowest points total with a record that would have got us relegated in 2 of the previous 4 seasons. As I’ve argued in the “Spot the Difference” thread a team’s league position does not tell the whole story of their season
2) – which manager/managers do you think would/could come in to achieve the level of success you picked in 1)? If Bobby was to leave/be sacked I’m of the “if you don’t ask you don’t get” school of thought. Somebody has already mentioned Avram Grant. You’ve got Mark Hughes. Alan Curbishley, Alan Pardew. I think based on their records al would do a better job than Bobby. They may all say no to the job but I don’t agree with “aim low in case we get knocked back”. If I had time I’m sure that there are others I could think of both at home & abroad
3) – how long would you give your preferred manager to achieve the target set in 1) given that you have only given Martinez one season to achieve his given target of surviving. I think a season is more than enough time to see whether a manager is heading in the right direction. People refer to Jewell’s first season when asking for Bobby to be given time but, as I’ve pointed out previously on this board, you could tell from January onwards in his first season that we were improving. A full pre-season, 2 transfer windows & 9 months of the season itself is long enough to get a handle on whether someone is improving things, learning from their mistakes, is able to adapt & can be trusted with what little transfer money Latics have. I’ve seen very little from Martinez that convinces me he can do any of that – there are other managers (like Hutchings) when its apparent from an early stage that they aren’t up to the job & its best to bite the bullet & get rid earlyjayt – I’ve answered his question
“So why is someone who told it as it would be getting all this grief?
3 managers acheived axactly the same, why are two lauded (sp?) and one slaughtered?”I’ll also answer yours
a) They did not achieve “exactly the same”. All 3 managers who achieved “exactly the same” had totally different points, wins, draws, losses, goals for and goals against records. The only thing all 3 had in common was not getting relegated. As I said before I fail to see when comparing Bobby’s record from this season & bruce’s from last that they can be said to have achieved “exactly the same”
b) True Bobby said that this would be a transitional season where the focus would be on retaining our premier league spot so i can fully understand how you & many others can say that he achieved what he set out to do. What I would expect to see during a transitional phase for a team is an initial period where players were getting used to the system, followed by a balancing out period as they grew more accustomed to each other & the system of play followed by an improvement as the season wore on.
We didn’t get that – what we got was (IMO & quite clearly not yours) was crap at the start of the season, crap in the middle of the season & crap at the end of the season. After each precious victory people were on here & Bobby was in the press saying that this was the turning point & we’d push on from here & then we had another period where it was all back to square one
I can’t see any transition or any improvement at all & that is why I have been giving him griefIn fact the original question doesn’t even reflect what happened – Jewell got a hell of amount of grief on here & in the stands in the back end of the 06/07 season. Some idiot even lobbed his season ticket at him :oops: It was pretty much agreed by most on here that he’d taken latics as far as he could & that stepping down was a good thing all round
Also as results deteriorated in the back end of last season this board was full of people moaning about the crap football being dished up & when he left there were loads thankfull we didn’t have to watch that “hoofball rubbish” any more & still say it nowI’ve answered the question as to why I’m giving Bobby more grief than I did the other two god knows how many times in this thread & feels like banging my head against a brick wall.
Those are my reasons why “I” am giving him grief & those are the reasons why “I” didn’t give the other 2 as much grief. That you and ScholesControl disagree with those reasons is irrelevant you asked why those of us who are giving him stick are doing so & I’ve given you my reasonsScholesControl – You quite clearly think that as long as Latics stay up that is job done & that it doesn’t matter how that is achieved as long as it is achieved
I think differently & if you can’t see that there is a world of difference between being virtually safe by January, occupying a top half position for half the season, finishing 11th & getting 45 points (as we did last season) as opposed to not being safe until there were only 2 games left, being in the bottom half for 90% of the season & bottom 5 for over half of it, finishing 16th & getting 36 points (that’s 20% worse than the previous season) then there’s really little point in us continuing talkign about it coz you aint gonna change my mind & its clear I aint gonna change yours
“The goals conceded have been dreadful but the season is over now and we have 3 months to improve the situation”
Bobby is the manager who has overseen the demise of a defence that conceded 45 goals last season under Steve Bruce to one which conceded 79 goals this season with pretty much the same personnel.
In short he’s had since pre-season started in July of 2009 to get his defensive system right & its got no better from the low point at which it started.
So why on earth should I have any confidence that he’s going to sort it out over the next 3 months???“It would be nice if those who have been most ant-Martinez could string a few coherent sentences together in response to get both ends of the argument”
Griff – I typed my post above as you were typing yours
Although I was only repsonding to Wimbledon’s post I hope its coherent enough for you.
I will in due course get round to responding to your post ;)
