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jumping the gun there im not saying he should put his own money in
im saying he should pay penny for penny in new players
he sells for ten then bob gets ten get my point
its been bull last couple of years
after seven years we should be mid table with ease but no
get a decent team and bang gone sold
but if you fans are happy watching a struggling team every season and getting worse thats your choiceIf the club runs at a loss then spending every penny received in transfer fees back out to whichever team we buy replacements from would continue to rack up those losses which would eventuaqlly get to a level that the banks & any other creditors would be unwilling to support. They’d call em in & the club would go t!ts up
I do understand what you’re saying but it isn’t realistic in my opinion. You could argue that if it did happen then crowds would go up & the losses would be less or turn into profits but the persistant increase in crowds to sell out levels would take too long to catch up with the losses
There are many other clubs who have spent 7 years in the top flight & haven’t been “mid table with ease”. There are many with more resources who haven’t lasted even close to that long. The most comparable example to latics is Wimbledon & they always had to sell players & buy in cheaper replacements. They eventually wound up getting relegated coz of catastrophic mis-management at boardroom level
I’m not “happy” watching a team that struggles every season but latics are my side & will still be if we wind up as we were in the kenny Swain era. So will others, whilst others would desert the club. That’s life.
I will also say that the biggest kick in the teeth I’ve ever had as a Latics fan was in Bruces 2nd season when Whelan sold the team out from under him as we were challenging for a european spot coz we’d achieved “our aim” of safety & “needed to build for next season”. I couldn’t see the logic in it then & I still can’t see the logic in why they couldn’t have hung on to that side until the season’s end
That said, this is Wigan Athletic & I want to have a Wigan Athletic to support in another 36 years time and I accept that the club is doing the best it can with the resources it has & that if we get another really good side the best players will be cherry picked by other teams – I just hope that if we have another season like 08/09 that our chairman has learnt his lesson & holds on to em until the seasons end (hopefully the refusal to sell N’Zogbia back in January is an indication that he has)EDIT – legolad is also right in saying that last season more was spent by the club than it received in transfer fees. This was no doubt done in anticipation of receiving money in this summer for N’Zogbia & possibly 1 other
whelan has stopped putting is own money in
players are bought by players being sold
what is annoying is we sell a player for 9.5m
replace him with one for say 2m
so where does the other 7m go,also its not whelans money but the clubs money used from the sale of previous players
example money from sale of palacios and heskey helped go towards zogbia
was not whelans own money
they used to call bill kenyon for the same thing.The club runs at a loss so transfer fees received are used to keep those losses to manageable levels & to buy replacements
Bill Kenyon did do the same thing yes – he had to. As did Stephen Gage & whatever other chairman we have.
As far as I am aware however (apart from unsubstantiated mud slinging) Dave Whelan has not taken money out of the club to put into his own back pocket or to prop up his other business interests. Something which one of the other chairman mentioned in his letter did do & for which he ended up settling out of court.
Nor has Whelan ever attempted to sell the club’s ground & move them lock, stock & barrell to another town
What Whelan has done is oversee the club’s rise up the professional leagues, help keep us there & build us a spanking new stadium not a hop, skip & a jump from where we used to play
The comparison with Whelan & Bill Kenyon starts & stops with the club having to sell players to fund rebuilding. Its called reality. Quite why you seem to expect & demand the man continues to put his own hard earned cash into the club indefinitely is beyond meI doubt very much that Martinez sees this lad as an immediate replacement for N’Zogbia
That’s even if Latics are “seriously” interested in him. The Derry City chairman could after all just be using as enquiry as a way of getting Peterborough to up their contract offer to him & get Derry City their moneyHowever, if Bobby is interested in him then I would imagine that he would be signed very much as someone that the club thinks has the potential to grow into a premier league player & use him sparingly over 1 or even 2 years. Its not a policy that I agree with or think is wise but he does have previous for it & to varying degrees of success
To compare Dave Whelan to Bill Kenyon is so far wide of the mark that its laughable
TyldesleyYes there are other players in the last year of their contracts being sold for over ten million, but not by Wigan. We need the money, and we can’t afford to increase N’Zogbia’s wages to meet his demands, and other clubs know that.
Bear in mind the player also has a say in all of this, so if Villa indicated that they could match his personal demands, the other ‘suitors’ could have been out of the running some time ago – if they were indeed suitors in the first place.
As for Martinez revealing that N’Zogbia was on his way out scuppering the deal, it could very easily have been Villa who asked for it not to be made public for fear of generating counter bids.
Basically, there are lots of maybes that only those on the inside will know fully about.
Yes, I’d also always like to know the truth, the whole truth…..etc, but is it not also the case in most of areas of life that drip feeding, and telling half truths is quite often the best policy?
For instance, I’m quite sure that the comments last year about Gomez and Scotland were an ego-massage for the players because I’m also pretty damn sure that saying publically that they weren’t good enough would do nobody any good.
And you can hardly say he was talking shyte when he was saying his system is 4-3-3. It’s his system, and if he says it’s called Marjorie, then that’s what it’s called.
Or are you more of a case of:
‘Does this dress make me look fat?’
‘It certainly does. Is tea ready yet?’ ;)I understand that of all the clubs in this division that Latics are probably the one that the others know need the money more than others just to be able to continue – it doesn’t help Latics get what our players are worth however when we advertise that fact. We all know it but the club must realise that at times they are shooting themselves in the foot by shouting it from the rooftops.
With regards to Villa possibly insisting that the deal was kept quiet or they would pull out. Latics have a commodity that Villa want. It shouldn’t b e for Villa to set the terms of how a deal is conducted & the club should stand up for their interest before that of others. They can’t be that desparate for the cash – didn’t Bobby himself say last week that the club didn’t need to sell anyone??? or was he telling porkies again? ;)
There’s no half truths or drip feeding in some of what Bobby says. They are untruths or downright lies. The Gomez & Scotland comments I can take your point on but when he’s said the complete opposite not months before he makes himself look like an idiot or someone who thinks that the fans are too dumb to remember
He can call his system whatever he wants but like I said it doesn’t make it so. he can even call me Marjorie if he wants but it aint my nameI like your does this dress make me look fat analogy but Whelan is often called father jack coz of his often contradictory ramblings “I’d never appoint a foreign manager … Welcome to Latics new manager Roberto Martinez” etc… It looks like he’s teaching Bobby well!!!!
There are upwards of 5 to 6 weeks of the transfer window left. To have sold him now for as little as the club has looks like 1 of 2 things:
1) the club has panicked when only 1 bidder has come forward & rather than gamble or take a risk that other bidders would come forward nearer to August 31st they’ve decided to take the bait now even though the figure is not what they wanted or what they think he’s worth & even though Villa have £38mill burning a hole in their pocket
2) Bobby has a player lined up but needs the money from N’Zogbia before Whelan will even sanction a move for the new signing. therefore the club’s decided just to take the highest bid on offer at this early stage in order to secure this signing & allow em time to settle inI’d like to think that its the second one but the cynic in me thinks its more likely to be the first
Although it would have been nice to get £10 plus for him, N’Zogbia has a year left on his contract. So, you either get as much money as you can for him, or lose him for nothing next May – whilst at the same time pay a couple of million quid to keep an unhappy player on the payroll for twelve months.You can hold out if you’ve got funds to spend on a replacement, otherwise if you need the cash to fund transfers, at some point you have to draw a line under it or you won’t have time to get the replacement in.
And, I knew you’d drag Martinez into it somehow….
I’m all for telling it as it is, but surely you can see he’s singing the company song?
The alternative is ‘N’Zogbia’s not coming with us on pre-season because we’re about to sell him.’
Suddenly the deal’s off, and N’Zogbia back to sulking again.
There are other players in the last year of their contracts being sold for more than £10mill so that argument doesn’t really stand up to any sort of scrutiny Standish
It just constantly frustrates me that Latics never seem to get the sort of transfer fees out of buying clubs that many other clubs do – Southampton will probably get more for that Chamberlin kid than latcis will get for N’Zogbia & if Henderson is worth more than him then I really do know nowt about football!! ;)
i think in this case Whelan burnt his bridges so to speak with the “we have to sell him” comment which came out basically as we would be up poo creek without a paddle if we lose him for nowt next summer &/or if we don’t sell him now our summer rebuilding plans are up the spout. All no doubt true but it put Latics in a really weak negotiating position that Villa have been able to exploit & the end result is that Latics have got below their stated figure which even the club (bizarrely) stated was well below market value anywayI’m not sure why stating N’Zogbia wasn’t going to Austria coz he was about to be sold would scupper the deal that it appears had already been agreed with Villa. If anything it may well have spurred a few more of his suitors into putting a higher bid in than Villa’s widely reported figure
I don’t like being lied to. I know it happend all the time & I should get over it in the big bad world we live in but it rankles that the club & Martinez had the front to say somet as weak as they did. Towing the company line or not its another example of the point I made last week in another thread that just coz Bobby says it doesn’t mean its so
As its a regular thing that gets flung in the face of anyone who criticises Bobby I think its only right & fair to flag up examples of when he talks out of his poo chuteI dread to think what states I would have ended up in at some games had I been able to have a pint during the game as well as before it
When you think about how much N’Zogbia has improved as a player whilst with Latics
When you think about how much higher his reputation is now than it was when Newcastle flogged him to us
When you think that N’Zogbia cost Latics somet in the region of £6.5mill before this improvement
And then when you think about how much some other players have gone for this summer (£20mill for Henderson?????????? :confusion-seeingstars: )
To have only received £9.5mill from Villa for him seems like absolute daylight robberyAs much as I admire what Whelan has done for Latics he’s managed to make himself look like an absolute @r$e in 2 ways in this transfer:
1) “not a penny less than £10mill & that is not enough” before flogging him for less than that amount &
2) As much as we all know its true anyway, to come out publicly & state that “we have to sell him” is gonna keep the bidding below market value anyway coz other clubs know Latics are desparate for the cash.
There are times when I wonder how the man has made so much moneyBobby also has a little black mark as well in his statements over the last week. There are some who hang on his word when shooting down those who criticise him “Bobby says we don’t play with 1 up front”, “Bobby says he only ever intended to ease [player x] into action” & “Bobby said at the fans forum/Q&A sessions that …..”
Well Bobby also said that N’Zogbia was only staying behind coz he needed a break from pre-season training when it was blatantly obvious that the transfer was being lined up – his statements look ever so slightly like he’s treating the supporters like morons.
i think the phrase Bobby needs to bare in mind is “Don’t pish on my back & tell me its raining”today’s daily mirror says that Bobby is still fighting to convince him to ignore overtures from getafe & mallorca to sign for latics
Tydlesley, you’ve missed the point completely. It’s a bit of difference in saying after 9 games:‘He doesn’t seem to have adapted to the British game yet’
and
‘He isn’t good enough’
And that is the crux of this argument.
Adaptation is an ongoing process and you can tell immediately if a player has not yet adapted to the rigours of the British game as he’ll regularly be knocked off the ball, caught in possession etc. You cannot tell immediately if he’s a good player or not – that takes time.
If it’s not a case of adapting, and is more a case of ability, then that must mean the likes of Blackpool and Wolves have a better standard of player than teams in Argentina.
Do you really think so? No. Therefore I conclude that it was more a case of needing to adapt than a question of ability.
Will he ever adapt? Who knows?
Do he have the necessary ability? He clearly knows where the goal is and being called up to the Argentina team means he must be at least half decent.
Whether you believe what Martinez says in his Q&A session is your decision – however judging a couple of Boselli touchline tantrums at not being brought on as a sub during games, I’d guess that there was a modicum of truth in his move being engineered by himself and his agent – and if you have an unhappy player on your books, why would you want to keep him when you can at least get someone to pay his wages?
I do get what you’re trying to say with regards to adapting & not being good enough
There are however many who would argue that the 2 are pretty closely linked. I’d also disagree that you can’t tell whether a player isn’t good enough after 9 games – if Bobby sends a scout to watch a player, I’m guessing that if the scout doesn’t feel he’s good enough then it doesn’t even take 9 games never mind a full season of games for the scout to make up his mindDo i think that Wolves & Blackpool have a better standard of player than those in Argentina? You answered no for me but I’d argue that the standard of the British top flight is better (on the whole) than its Argentinian counterpart so there’s every chance that he was coming up against some players who were better than he was used to (& no doubt some who were worse)
I wouldn’t necessarily use the fact that he was called up for Argentina in what was basically a 3rd choice team as a yardstick that he has what it takes. In my years of watching England I can think of many players who were called up who weren’t good enough (Michael Ricketts??). I aint saying that he doesn’t have what it takes but 1 call up for a severely weakened squad doesn’t say a great deal
I would also argue that the english top flight is littered with players who have had a great season & then gone on to prove it was really a bit of a flash in the pan. Looking at Boselli his record prior to the season before we signed him isn’t anything to shout about – 5 goals in 32 games in the Spanish 2nd division. 10 goals in 3 seasons for Boca Juniors. His 10 in almost 30 games for Estudiantes in the 08/09 season is nowt better than averageAs I’ve said I am not saying he is or isn’t good enough but a call up for Argentina & 1 really good goal scoring season are in his favour when saying he must have somet but his other stats at 5 clubs over 6 seasons seem to show that he really may not have what it takes
Time will tellAnd in that one short post you have proven that you will pounce upon anything you feel will start a cyber fight…..So, in response, yes you can judge whether a player has adapted to the pace and physical aspects of the British game by watching him in so few matches.
Adaptation is an an ongoing process, where you can see the progress from game to game. It’s the same as judging how a player is recovering from an injury.
Boselli wasn’t used to the pace or physical nature of the British game, and wasn’t showing any signs of developing quickly enough – and that was the opinion of Martinez .
Judging a player’s ability from so few game is totally different matter altogether. You simply cannot say a player is poor by watching so few games.
It has been stated on numerous occasions that it was the player and his agent who engineered a move to Genoa, and Martinez confirmed this in his recent Q&A session. To me that would suggest it is not the manager who doesn’t rate him.
And no, it’s not surprising that plenty of Latics fans don’t rate him either considering there are plenty of them that think Dave Whelan pockets all the money received from player sales, N’ Zogbia plays on the ‘wrong wing’ and 4-4-2 will solve everything.
It was no more an attempt by me to “pounce upon anything” just to “start a cyber fight” than your post dragging up stats was on the other poster – it would be interesting to note how Boselli’s stats at Genoa add to the debate like.
IMO I don’t feel you can make a statement that you can’t judge a players ability on so few games & then make your own judgement call – regardless of whether its on different areas of his ability, just because you think its okay to judge those areas & not others
Just my own opinion like but I think its a case of double standards
Personally I don’t think 9 games is enough to prove either way whether Boselli can adapt to this leagues pace/power etc.. just as it isn’t enough to show whether (if he gets the chances) he is good enough in front of goal – he didn’t look much cop from the little I saw of him but I’d no more write him off than I’d say I’m sure he’s got it in him to be a success. My point was that he dropped so quickly out of Bobby’s plans that you can’t blame others for saying they think he’s sh iteWith regards to whether Boselli engineered the move to genoa I’d just say:
1) if it is true then, if Bobby thought he was good enough to make a contribution to the rest of that season he could have just said no to it. Simple as – but he didn’t & that to me suggests a manager that doesn’t rate him
2) Bobby has said plenty of things at these Q&A sessions that is about as believable as some of the things Dave Whelan comes out with. I’ll not list em all but one that springs to mind is him saying that he only ever intended to ease Scotland & Gomez into action in his first season but due to the poor quality of the squad already here he had to chuck em in at the deep end & they weren’t ready. This coming just months after signing them both to great fanfare & saying Gomez would be the creative hub of his team & scotland would have no trouble adapting to the top flight. Just coz Bobby says it doesn’t make it soYep there are plenty at latics who make some bizarre judgement calls (there are even some idiots who didn’t think Bobby had it in him to keep Latics up last season ;)
) – but I really do think in this instance that the managers actions (as does Genoa’s “you can have him back thanks” attitude) indicate that he realises he bought a duff un in Boselli (whether that’s just coz he’s plain sh ite or doesn’t fit with our style or he can’t adapt to England & the style of football)Boselli’s failing was in adapting to the pace and physicality of the game during the build-up play.I don’t see how you can judge a player on so few appearance – and when he did start, he was usually taken off just after half time.
In those 2 sentences it looks to me that:
a) you have judged him regardless of how many appearances he made
b) highlighted that even the manager who spent so much on him & fought so hard to get him wound up in a relatively short space of time rating him less than Rodallega, Di Santo & Sammon.Its not surprising therefore that plenty of Latics fans don’t rate him either
The second point was Bobby can say he plays with 3 strikers till he’s blue in the face but he doesn’t he plays with one – regardless of whether he has a tenner or 2 fivers in his hand!! ;)
I’ll type this again in case I did it in white on a white background before.
In actual fact, he said three forward players, not out and out strikers, which is slightly more plausible
;) [/quote]
Griff – I didn’t see your post when I replied to Standish.
I’d still take a bit of an issue with what Bobby said though – you said he jumped down your throat when you suggested we play with a lone striker. Whichever way you look at it, the team does play with a lone striker & 2 other forward players whose job it is (allegedly!!! ;) ) to get in the box when we have the ball in the opposition half. There’s a difference :happy-partydance: :happy-partydance:
Not saying how many strikers I think he should have on the pitch or which system works better but he does only have 1 striker so I aint sure how he can take issue with someone saying that we do
You can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig!!From another post of yours – “Where did I, or Bobby, say that we were actually any good at playing with three strikers?”
Where did I say that you did say that?? ;)Players coming in from wide when in an offensive position are the extra attacking players in Martinez’s opinionThey are indeed extra attacking players when in an offensive position.
They aren’t strikers though – and that’s not just being pedantic. A striker/centre forward has a specific task (at a very basic level its win the ball, hold it up/lay it off, get in the box, score).
The roles that N’Zogbia or Moses or whoever play out wide are far more than that & they have often been too busy doing those other roles to be able to commit to going forward.
The only striker is the spear head of that 4-5-1 formation. That’s not just at Latics that’s at whichever team plays itI’m not knocking 4-5-1 as a system coz it can work really well & has done at times for Latics but the initial point was that Rodallega is not equipped for that spearhead role.
The second point was Bobby can say he plays with 3 strikers till he’s blue in the face but he doesn’t he plays with one – regardless of whether he has a tenner or 2 fivers in his hand!! ;)But if he was the man who worked with that moon on a daily basis, gave instructions to the moon, and ultimately decided how that moon lined up with other moons, I be inclined to believe him if he said it was made of cream cheese as opposed to what I’d observed whilst watching the telly or through my telescope.Does the nursery rhyme say “the moon is made of cream cheese”?? I was sure I was taught it was green cheese!!
Back to Bobby, he plays with 1 striker – its as plain as the nose on his face. To say he plays with 3 strikers is nonsense.
You don’t need to work with Bobby, receive instructions from him or be told where to line up by him, let alone watch it at the ground as opposed to on your telly to see the system he plays.
If they do indeed play with 3 strikers then the amount of times Rodallega/Sammon/Di Santo/Boselli/Scotland/Moreno are isolated on their own against 4 defenders or are the only player in the box waiting to receive a cross means 2 people somewhere aren’t doing their job & haven’t been doing it for the last 2 seasons3 strikers?? we’ll be getting told that black is white next coz Bobby says it is.
