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The few times that it has worked are not enough to outweigh the times that it hasn’t. It’s probably time for a change – of formation, not manager ;)
Welcome to the darkside Griff – you’re just one more limp wristed defeat away from calling for his head now!!!!
The problem is IMO that we don’t have the personnel suited to the 4-5-1 system & Bobby’s insistance on forcing whatever personnel he has available into that system rather than adapting the formation to who he has available is going to be his downfall – maybe he’s never heard of the expression that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
If you look at Bolton, a club similar to ours, how many of the Bolton players would you swap with ours…I think not many (if any – and no AlHabsi shots please) but they pass the ball well AND SCORE GOALS TO WIN GAMES.Off the top of my head I would swap their keeper Jaskawhatsisface, Cahill, Holden, Elmander, Davies & the Korean lad for their Latics counterparts
As for the “bring in an experienced no. 2” argument – I remember this rearing its head last season as a last resort of the Bobby supporters & my argument then as it is now is why?
By acknowledging that he needs to bring someone else in basically to show him what to do you are admitting that he isn’t good enough on several fronts:
1) He is a bad judge of who he needs as his backroom team
2) he needs to have somebody alongside him showing him what to do
3) what ever he has in place now & what ever he is trying to get them to do isn’t workingSo as i said basically its adn admission that he isn’t good enough. If you’re saying bring someone in alongside him to show him the ropes until he is good enough to stand on his own 2 feet then why should Bobby get that treatment?? Pull any tom, dick or harry out of the crowd – they won’t be good enough but bring someone in alongside them who is & who can teach them until they are good enough!!!
As for Butch Wilkins – I remember him in his final season at Old Trafford (where I had a LMTB at the time as a youngster – before I knew any better) & what a feckin player he was. He oozed class & its no wonder AC Milan snapped him up. United’s midfield of him, Remi Moses & Bryan Robson was superb
The friendly against Moscow Torpedo
Dunno what stage of the game it was but Torpedo were attacking & Allen Tankard launched into a full bloodied challenge in which he won the ball fair & square
The ball in question however went flying off at some speed & smacked some young kid (who was sat on the perimeter walll about half wall between the supports club floodlight & the Phoenix Stand) square in the face with such force that it knocked him clean off the wall
I’d stopped laughing just in time to see the young lads head pop up above the wall slightly bloodied & scriking his eyes out!!I’m still laughing 20 years later
Another one has to be an FA Cup game away at Wycombe where after Simon Haworth (I think) scored to put us in front about 20 or so Latics fans launched a mini-pitch invasion in celebration. Gary Lineker on MOTD later described it as the most inept pitch invasion ever as some bloke went @r$e over t!t after a puny attempt to jump over the 2ft high advertising hoarding that acted as their perimeter wall
Mike Flynn running off in terror after scoring away at Blackpool in the televised evening fixture as hundreds of Latics fans thundered towards him always raises a chuckle too
No its not the only condition. Giving a young successful lower league manager a chance shine in the premiership being the other condition. How many of the 15,000 (I’d say it was more like 11,000) have that in there CV?.He’s been given a chance to shine & to be honest after 18 months in the job more often than not he’s looked like tarnished brass.
I’m also all for giving a lower league manager with the experience an opportunity to shine in the top flight – I argued at the time however that Bobby didn’t have that experience. He’d had 2 & a bit years at Swansea which IMO was nowhere near enough & I questionned his ability to know what it took for a player to be successful in the top flight when he signed a 30 odd year old lower/Scottish league journeyman as his key centre forward signing & said he’d have no trouble adapting.. Anyone with any knowledge of seeing good lower league players flounder in the top flight knew Scotland wouldn’t be a success & so it was provedAnswer me this, would he have quit Swansea to go and manage Blackpool/Fulham etc just because they are in the premier league?Would he have quite Swansea to go to a newly promoted Blackpool? No coz chances are, like everyone else he’d have thought they’d come straight back down & seeing as how his Swansea side were gonna be seen as promotion challengers he’d have thought that 12 months down the line he’d have more chance of being in the top flight with Swansea than he would with Blackpool
Would he have left Swansea to go to Fulham – a club bankrolled by one of the richest men in Britain, who’d reached 7th the year before & who were in the Europa league? Of course he would – he’d have been there like a shot. Just like he’d have jumped ship to go to any other established top flight club (of any size). I think its absurd to think otherwiseHe was certainly getting Swansea out.That admittedly is the weak point in my argument as he had done a successful job, but I can no more prove that he would have tread water (or worse) if he’d stayed than you can prove he’d have got them up to the top flight
I’d disagree. I suppose it depends who sits around you.In my time at Latics I’ve seen Hamilton, Swain, Deehan & Benson get all manner of sustained stick from the crowd. Yes Bobby gets some but its isolated complaints about his tactics, formations or substitutions – there’s certainly nothing along the lines of the “Hamilton Out” chants I used to enjoy many moons ago
I do know that if any other manager we’ve had in the last 23 years had made the same mistakes as Bobby, over & over & over again the “Bobby Out” chants would be bringing the roof down but as you so clearly demonstrate there is a “Yeah but he loves the club” train of thought that prevents most of us doing thatOk. I’ll have a bash at it, TL.I’d give him the rest of this season. If we go down, we go down.
If we stay up and are still in the relegation places-ish this time next year, ie end November, there’s an argument for sacking him then. IF, that is, there is money in place to finance a new man.
There. A very woolly and not very well thought out response but hopefully one that will provoke some debate while I crack on with what I have to get done before I jump on the Piccadilly line to the Emirates about 4pm.
To be honest I don’t think there needs to be any new money in place to finance a new man.
There are manager’s out there who quite simply are better than others and who, given the same players & resources as A.N. Other manager woud do a better job than them
You only have to look over the M61 at Bolton to see proof of that. Owen Coyle almost immediately started producing better results than megson with the same squad
He hasn’t spent oodles of cash either. He’s also got players who looked complete pig swill under the previous manager looking like world beaters now.
Changes in training, changes in tactics, changes in formation can all have just as much effect, if not more at times, than throwing money at a problem.
Similarly Bruce took a matter of weeks to see what the major problems were when he took over from hutchings & had Latics on the up before he was given any money to spendNow I know the obvious question to me now is “well who would you bring in to do that job then?” & the honest answer is that I haven’t got a feckin clue but I think that given the right training, right tactics, formation & style of play to suit the players we have rather than trying to force them into a system that seems alien to most of em a different manager could get far more out of the same group of players than Bobby is managing at present
To be fair, I love the club but I’m pretty certain that I’d be one step down from useless as its manager. If that’s the only condition for offering someone a managers job for life at latics then I’m sure you’ll find upwards of 15,000 other people that would consider themselves equally, if not more so, qualified
With regards to the rest of your comments, to be honest I’d beg to differ. Martinez is here because this current jobs offers him more prestige, more money, more chances of future career progression & a higher football/media profile than his previous job did, so we shouldn’t kid ourselves that he’s here for the love of the club. Bobby often spoke of his love & loyalty towards Swansea City & how you would have to “drag him kicking & screaming” to get him away from there. I didn’t notice much kicking & screaming when he left though did you?
I’m not blaming him coz I’d do the same. After all its a job to him & we’d pretty much al lleave our current jobs if another firm offered us more money & prestige to jump ship, but that’s my point. Its a job to him – nothign mroe & nothing less. He won’t leave/resign now coz he’s on a good number but if he was to have some success with us then he would leave to the first club that came along which offered him more money, more prestige & a bigger transfer budget so lets not kid ourselves otherwise
In that respect he’s no different to Steve BrucePersonally I’m glad Martinez wasn’t appointed whilst we were in the lower leagues coz I doubt we’d have ever got out of them
Martinez is showered with abuse on here because many people can see (or think they can see) him making the same mistakes over & over again & not learning from them. In fact, I’d argue that he’s been given far less stick from the fans than another manager without his previous connections to the club would have had because people want him to succeed & clutch at straws that he’s turning things around. He doesn’t get anywhere near as much stick in the ground as I’ve seen other latics managers get in my time following emIn my eyes Martinez has to earn the “respect” you talk about as manager through his achievements. he doesn’t/shouldn’t be entitled to it purely coz of who he is
It’s a pointless question TL because Whelan has already said he won’t sack him, even if we are relegated.That suggests to me that he will be given this season and at least next.
I’m not saying the man is the finished article by any stretch, but under the circumstances under which he appears to have to work, I would like to see who is replacement would be before we get shut, personally.
There could be a frying pan and fire situation.
I don’t think it is a pointless question to be honest. I’m not asking anyone how long they think Whelan will give him I’m asking people who say stuff along the lines of “We need to give him time to get his own players/tactics/training methods accross to the players” or quite simply “give him time & he will come good”, just how long a time they think is suitable for a manager to be given before they will think “You know what you’ve had your chance. Time to move on”
They’re not saying (by & large) “Whelan has said he is going to be at Latics for the long haul so get used to it”, they’re saying that they feel he should be given more time so I’m just enquiring as to how long they think that time should be
You know I’be thought for a long time that he isn’t up to the job. That’s not to say I want him sacked now or that he hasn’t made some progress but 12 months ago these people were saying “give him time”. 12 months later they are saying “give him time”. How long in their (not Whelan’s) opinion do they think that time should be
Whelan has already been far more patient with Bobby than he was with all his other managers (with the exception of Jewell in his first season) so for once maybe he is going to stick to what he says. Me personally, I don’t go much by what he says as he’ll often go out & do the very things he’s just said he’d never do but I tend to think that his finger has at times quivered over the trigger but those occasional stella performances & results Bobby can pull out of the bag have come at times to make him think (as it seems to do with alot of supporters) that he’s getting it right
Whelan was quite vocal on a couple of occasions in his criticism of some of Bobby’s tactics over the course of last season over the close season which makes me think this “Best coach in Europe” stuff he’s also come out with disguises some of his true thoughtsThat was his big mistake, admitting defeat
To be fair until the Ruskies were banging on the door of his bunker he didn’t
In a manner similar to our Bobby he kept persisting with the same tactics defeat after defeat until all that Germany had achieved over the pervious 12 years was in ruins
He criminally ignored Rommel’s pleas to put 2 panzer divisions up front in response to the D-Day landings & his decision to wait until time added on to stretch the Allies defences by bringing on his pacey reserve forces to attack through the Ardennes was too little too late.
The German population’s faith that Hitler “would sort it out given time” proved to be misplaced!!!As far as I am aware however Bobby has yet to resort to concentration camps as a method of housing those players whose skills & belief in how to play the game are considered at odds with his own vision[/quote]
Hitler gesticulated more with his arms (or arm in his case.) I just dont think he could have whipped his minions up into a frenzy by standing there with his arms folded ![/quote]
Mussolini was quite keen on standing there with his arms folded. maybe Bobby is using a wide range of influences & adding his own twist
That might explain his reversal of the SA’s outfit of brown shirts & slacks with black bootsThat was his big mistake, admitting defeatTo be fair until the Ruskies were banging on the door of his bunker he didn’t
In a manner similar to our Bobby he kept persisting with the same tactics defeat after defeat until all that Germany had achieved over the pervious 12 years was in ruins
He criminally ignored Rommel’s pleas to put 2 panzer divisions up front in response to the D-Day landings & his decision to wait until time added on to stretch the Allies defences by bringing on his pacey reserve forces to attack through the Ardennes was too little too late.
The German population’s faith that Hitler “would sort it out given time” proved to be misplaced!!!As far as I am aware however Bobby has yet to resort to concentration camps as a method of housing those players whose skills & belief in how to play the game are considered at odds with his own vision
Are the first 2 posters forgetting that he was part of the defence last season that shipped in 70 odd goals
Now this seasons defence are far from perfect but their goals per game ratio is better than it was last season
I asked the question last week & none of Bobby’s defenders were able to answer it, so I’ll ask it again
If you are saying that we need to give him time, just how long do you think that time should be before the club & Bobby cut their losses?
I’m not saying that I can’t see some progress since this time last year nor am I saying that I can’t see what Bobby is trying to do but the progress towards both of these goals is painfully slow & often seems like one step forwards, 2 steps back
Lets not also forget that if one of the company’s directors openly questionned the wisdom of buying the machine in the first place and was more or else pushed aside for doing so you would think that the manager responsible has staked alot against his knowledge of the company’s needs & ability to get the machine to increase productivity being greater than that of the director so that if he fails he should fall on his own sword
There will be no more than three or four youth/reserve team players in Arsenal’s squad.A change of keeper, one in midfield and perhaps one in defence. The other will be on the bench. Arsenal are desperate to win somethng this year.
The Arsenal line up from the last round was:
53 Szczesny
06 Koscielny
20 Djourou
27 Eboue
28 Gibbs (Sagna 19 yellow card)
40 Eastmond
07 Rosicky
14 Walcott
15 Denilson
11 Vela (Fabregas 70)
52 Bendtner (Emmanuel-Thomas 84)The Arsenal line up from Saturday was:
21 Fabianski
03 Sagna
06 Koscielny
18 Squillaci
22 Clichy
07 Rosicky
08 Nasri
17 A Song
19 Wilshere
23 Arshavin
29 ChamakhNow I know that some of those from the league cup game would have played on Saturday had they been fit but I also know that Wenger will still make plenty of changes for tomorrow’s game
If you look at the line up that Arsenal put out against newcastle it was much changed from what you’d consider their strongest side but it wasn’t quote the “youth team” he’s put out in recent years.
Since that game I think a couple of the players he played have got injured & he risked Fabregas in a game who also subsequently got injured (he was on the bench for the Newcastle game) so I think Wenger will make a fair few changes & if any of his “stronger” players are carrying knocks & niggles I think he’ll go on the side of caution & leave em out
Bobby i think should look at this as a way to pump some life back into the season & go with his strongest line up but I suspect after his comments after the victory in the last round (“I will continue to rotate the squad for these games”) and after the defeat against Fulham (“Too many of the players were tired after the midweek cup victory against Swansea”) that he will make changes
