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he only played under Bruce for 4 months, was used as a sub for most of that & scored 3 times!!!
I take your general point though in that he will never suit the formation & system that Bobby uses although I bet (hypothetically of course) if you played Di Santo, Sammon & Rodallega in the same position in the same games that Rodallega would score the most (probably as much as the other 2 combined)
Bobby himself has said on several occasions that Rodallega doesn’t have the attributes to play that lone striker role (I know he doesn’t call it a lone striker position but that’s what it is) yet keeps picking him in it
There is no doubt that Bobby is working under the sort of financial constraints that no other top flight Latics manager has had to work under so i agree that Latics performance in terms of points & league positions does need to be looked at in that light.
However there are errors that he makes week after week which have absolutely nothing to do with financial constraints which contribute greatly to Latics performances & which highlight his numerous shortcomings as a manager.
You only have to look at Saturday & his decision, in light of Alcaraz’s injury, to drop Stam to bring Boyce back at right back & Gohouri at centre half. Are you seriously telling me that there is anybody on here who would have looked the the defensive choices available on Saturday & thought that was the best option?
A good manager who adapt his team’s style & tactics to suit the players he has available yet after 2 years he’s still trying to get Gary Caldwell to play it out from the back instead of just getting it & then getting rid.As I said, yes he was always going to find it harder than previous bosses to unearth good enough players with less cash but to focus solely or mainly on that allows his numerous failings to be brushed under the carpet
I think everyone knows that Bobby has to manage off a significantly smaller transfer & salary budget than any of his Latics premier league predecessors.
That doesn’t excuse the insipid brand of football that he’s trying to get them to play nor the tactical or selection errors that he makes week after week – that comes about coz he makes poor choicesWith regards to a new manager coming in, i don’t agree with better the devil you know. Any new manager coming in would have to operate under the same budget constraints & so couldn’t bankrupt the club and I’ll take any manager who can see what’s staring them in the face as I believe that a manager with different tactics & selections could get that squad playing far better
And it happens, Martin O’Neill hasn’t spent a bean yet but new tactics, training etc.. have just got em somet like 5 wins in 7 gamesIf something’s broke, you try & fix it. IMO Bobby appears to be the thing that’s broken
The setting up of the Development programme across the board is still in its infancy (remember that getting better facilities was one of the elements that Roberto got from DW when he turned down Villa just 5 months ago).However – try listening here again – 1:07:50 in:
http://www.cockneylatic.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1160:roberto-martinez-the-full-interview&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=50(you will need to wait just a little for the green bar to load before you can click in the upper box at the past 1 hour mark – but while you’re waiting listen to about 4:40 onwards where you can hear about the development of Development squad players)
To be honest I’ve long since stopped believing anything that comes out of Bobby’s mouth.
His post match press releases barely make any sense (& I understand the logic of the likes of Griff who point out that he will not slag the team off in public) & he’s said that much at these fanzine interviews which contradicts things he’s said before that he may as well be talking Russian – basically they’re PR exercises & he just regurgitates the same old catchphrases that he knows the fans want to hear.
He can say them till he’s blue in the face but I believe what I see with my eyes not what he tells me & what I’m seeing with my eyes is a club that (apart from financially) is sliding backwards & a man at the helm who seems incapable of stopping that slidethey play competitive matches – often against teams made up of players who are in first team consideration at other clubsAs LMB has picked up on I also need to pick up on this argument of yours which I must have missed on my initial read
Against Liverpool last month, Latics had 4 players who are regularly in the 1st team/on the bench or as you put it “in first team consideration”. 5 if you include Dicko who has made the 1st team bench on occasions.
Liverpool had 1 (Jonjo Shelvey) & they absolutely mullered Latics to the extent I recall Latics stretching the keeper only once.
Latics don’t have much on the surface but I’m afraid that if you scratch beneath it there’s nowtStandish – I wasn’t paying particular attention to who said it so it wasn’t a personal dig at you
Bobby’s 3 yr plan was mentioned only this week on the BBC website, by Bobby himself. True there is no mention of the development squad or youth set up in the article but he infers a plan for the club as a whole as opposed to specifically the first team.
The Guardian also carried an article on line back in November which involved an interview with Latics chief executive. In it he talks of the need for stability in the manager’s position & repaying Bobby for turning down Villa in the summer with “patience & loyalty”. He also stresses that “we are developing the club throughout” – presumably (on the playing side) to Bobby’s blue print.I’m not specifically referring to yourself here as I’ve no idea whether you have mentioned it but the pro-Bobby lobby certainly use “he’s developing the club not just the first team” regularly as a reason for backing him. On all fronts this season it is looking woeful
You mention that “if you want to look at results, then no, it’s not going so great this season. But if you want to look at the development of young players, and especially young local players, then yes it is going great” – sorry but I don’t see any evidence to back up the claim that it’s going great this season. If you set the yardstick of “great” at some Wigan lads in the youth set up then it’s one hell of a low yardstick.
Is the development squad turning players into ones who can challenge for a first team place? – Callum McManaman at present & as far as I’m aware he was on the books before Bobby arrivedSorry, and I don’t doubt the sincerity of what you say, but it doesn’t wash with me at present. Again not referring to you specifically but it seems that after 2 & a half years of claiming what a great job Bobby was doing for the club as a whole 2 dismal seasons for the levels of the club below 1st team are now dismissed as not really mattering. The pro-Bobby camp can’t have it both ways.
The first team has got worse, as it appears has the development squad, as it appears the youth team hasFor the life of me, apart from reducing Latics wage bill, I can’t see what Bobby’s plan is
Despite being a paid up member with the hat, scarf, t-shirt & pin badges I’ve tried to avoid Darkside posts this season as I figured after the way last season turned around Bobby deserved some slack but as much as I’m trying to fight it the urge to post on this has overwhelmed me!!!
Sorry lightside but the rather weedy attempts to brush this under the carpet don’t really wash here (IMO of course). One of the other posters is right 1 stick that the lightside have constantly used to beat down darksiders is that Bobby’s “3 yr plan” isn’t just focusing on the first team but the whole club & highlight the improvement in the reserve & youth teams.
Well this season, the reserves have won 2 from 13 & to be frank on the 1 occasion I was unlucky enough to see them they were dire.
The youth team, as much as 9-1 might be considerd a “freak result” by some have so far this season lost to Port Vale, Shrewsbury (twice), Stockport, Walsall, Scunthorpe (in a cup competition), Tranmere, Blackpool & Notts Forest and have won just 3 of 14. All clubs have to compete with the “big boys” hoovering up the talent so that excuse doesn’t really wash especially when they concede 6 goals against a Stockport club who don’t even have access to the football league funding any more.The fact is that after almost 3 years of Bobby being at the club there’s a core of poor quality that runs through the club from top to bottom.
Now I expect to read “it takes time to establish new youth, reserve & scouting set ups” but in the words of Bobby himself, he had a 3 yr plan to get this set up – that time is nearly up & by any stretch of the imagination so far it doesn’t look like he’s close to achieving the targets he himself has setI can already predict what some of the answer are going to be (I feel an anti-Martinez thread on the way….)Mine would be Dave Whelan:
1. Did you honestly really believe Wigan would one day play in the Premier League?
2. What was the real story behind Jimmy Bullard leaving?
3. Can you lend us some money?
Would you believe what he told you in relation to questions 1 & 2????
I’m pretty certain you could believe his answer to question 3!!I’ve said it before but no-one system/formation is inherently better than the other no matter what some people on either side of the dark/light side might argue.
The best formation to play is the one that suits the playing personnel that you have at the club. For me the 4-5-1 historically used by Bobby or the 3-4-2-1 (possibly a 5-4-1 system depending on how you look at it) used recently doesn’t make the best use of the playing personnel at the club, primarily in my opinion, because none of the strikers are suited to the lone striker role
Again only my opinion but I think that all of them (& Boselli) would look better in a traditional 2 up front
Then again I don’t have my FA coaching badges like our Bob so what the feck do I know??
“before the break we weren’t ourselves – we were giving the ball away”
And how the feckin hell is that not being themselves????????? :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:
He was the last man, so if taken to the letter of the law surely that’s a sending off?
The laws of the game don’t mention anything about a last man. In the case of a handball it states you can dismiss a player from the field of play for deliberate handball if they “deny the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal scoring opportunity”.
For me that’s an obvious goal scoring opportunity even if Figueroa was in his own half as Aguerro would have been clean through on goal & the chasing defender (who at the moment of the handball was the distance of half the centre circle + 3 or 4 yards away) was Gary Caldwell who wouldn’t have caught him in a month of Sunday’s. This leaves the City forward in a 1 on 1 with the keeper & in my book is an obvious goal scoring opportunity.
Having looked on a ref’s website this morning though not every ref sees it that way[/quote]
Is there a law mentioning ‘the last man’ for fouls – or is it just common myth and hearsay? If there is, surely you should also have it included for handballs like that?It was one of the most blatant sendings off I’ve seen for a long while in my opinion, and I can’t see how it can be debated otherwise.
For the record, I’m glad he wasn’t send off.[/quote]
Its just myth
The law for fouls states a player can be sent off for a foul if he “denies an obvious goal scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards players goal with an offence punishable by a free kick or penalty kick”.
It is something you can take into account when deciding if its an obvious goal scoring opportunity but it isn’t necessary to send a player off. Remember the Chelsea game at home in Bobby’s first season when one of the Chelsea players was sent off – i can’t remember the exact circumstances but I was reffing that day & got back to here the pundit on Sky Sports saying he wasn’t sure if it was a sending off coz there were covering players. It didn’t matter though coz if the foul hadn’t been committed there was an obvious goal scoring opportunity so the ref got it spot on
Sorry I was wrong, there were two Wigan players that may have got back to make a tackle before Aguero got anywhere near the box.You have to be taking the pish with that statement surely???
At the moment of the handball, other than Figueroa, the only other Latics player in the camera shot is Gary Caldwell.
Caldwell himself must be at least 15 yards away. Aguerro isn’t standing still, he’s just starting his sprint having seen that Figueroa has misjudged the flight of the ball. Even from a trotting start Caldwell at full sprint wouldn’t have caught Aguerro. Figueroa wouldn’t have caught him as his momentum was still carrying him forward in the air & he would have had to have waited to hit the ground, stop, turn & then sprint by which time Aguerro would have been 15-20 yards away
The camera angle at the moment of the handball covers an area that must be 50 yards wide & their is not a single other Latics player in shot. I think the next nearest player is Alcaraz who is nearer the City penalty area than he is to the half way line.The only debate really is whether a player with a 1 on 1 run at the keeper from the half way line is an obvious goal scoring opportunity. i think it is but I can understand those who say there are too many things that could have happened from the half way line to the goal to say it was obvious – one of those things however is not him being caught by Caldwell, Figueroa or Alcaraz unless Aguerro was to suddenly lose the ability to move!!!!!
He was the last man, so if taken to the letter of the law surely that’s a sending off?The laws of the game don’t mention anything about a last man. In the case of a handball it states you can dismiss a player from the field of play for deliberate handball if they “deny the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal scoring opportunity”.
For me that’s an obvious goal scoring opportunity even if Figueroa was in his own half as Aguerro would have been clean through on goal & the chasing defender (who at the moment of the handball was the distance of half the centre circle + 3 or 4 yards away) was Gary Caldwell who wouldn’t have caught him in a month of Sunday’s. This leaves the City forward in a 1 on 1 with the keeper & in my book is an obvious goal scoring opportunity.
Having looked on a ref’s website this morning though not every ref sees it that way
It is about mixing it up & that’s the point, Latics don’t and it’s all too predictable & pedestrian. Actually its not just about mixing it up either its about knowing what type of play the opposition is vulnerable to & choosing the right ball at the right time – if that right ball always happens to be a long ball into the corner all game long then so be it.
martinez made some gobbledegook comment last night about it not being about the results but about the performances coz that brings the results & he was referring to the players being too nervous about getting points on the board to play the right way. I’m only an outsider looking in obviously but to me it seems that most of the time the problem isn’t that but is about the players being too concerned about doing things Bobby’s way (playing out of the back etc..) that they ignore their instincts (e.g. leather it out of the back when under pressure or looking for the runner & short ball instead of knocking it long into space for someone to run on to) & wind up either flapping, getting caught in two minds or taking the more difficult option & fecking it up. You can’t tell me that it’s ever been Gary Caldwell’s instinct as a centre half to bring the ball under control & attempt to pass his way out of trouble!!
It’s all very laudable of Bobby to try & play football the “right way” but by being (by his own admission) so stubborn that it is thr right way he can’t see what’s staring him in the face half the timeAndyc makes a good point about the free kicks – there was one in the first half last night where it was screaming out for a long diagonal ball into the box & look for the knock down. Latics waited till all the City players got behind the ball & knocked it back into their own half (it was the point that the boos rang out) & put em under pressure.
There was another free kick not long afterwards in a not too disimilar position to the one which City scored from. Again it was screaming out for the same type of delivery so it has the possibility of stranding the keeper &/or making any sort of flick on potentially dangerous to City. What did Latics do? Put it in with the opposite type of curl on it meaning that he delivery has to be pin point & the connection with it true to make it any sort of danger to the goal & they got neither.
